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Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
II Samuel 24:1
Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
I Chronicles 21:1
================================================== ===== There clearly appears to be a contradiction here and this happens to be one of the more problematic stories in the Bible. How do Christan spin doctors explain this WITHOUT really exposing critical flaws in their belief system? In addition to just the opening verses, the story is also disturbing when one considers the fact that David is actually INSTRUCTED to commit an act that incurs the wrath of God just so God could take out anger on Israel for some unspecified offense.
David comes out of the episode relatively unscathed, at least with his lie intact, while 70,000 of his people die as a result of some plague sent by God. David commits the offense yet the only problem he has to worry about is making a choice between three punishments. The one he chooses is the lesser of the three evils and the one that does not stress his political office.
How do Christan spin doctors explain this WITHOUT really exposing critical flaws in their belief system?
By saying that God is good and Satan is evil. That Satan can only do evil, because God admits him to do evil. Just like Satan could only harm Job because God gave him permission to do anything but kill Job.
You could say that Satan is God's personal problem solver (read: assassin/torturer).
If God allowed Satan to kill Job, God would have been the contractor of the hit and Satan would just be the assassin. In my eyes the contractor of a hit carries the responsibility for the murder and not the assassin.
In this scenario the assassin is just a tool or weapon. Then again when it comes to God we humans are nothing but tools.
Is it just me or did I explain the contradiction without using a dogma?
Who says that watching movies, in this case The Godfather (or reading comic books), is not educational?
Originally Posted by yydanay515By saying that God is good and Satan is evil. That Satan can only do evil, because God admits him to do evil. Just like Satan could only harm Job because God gave him permission to do anything but kill Job.
You could say that Satan is God's personal problem solver (read: assassin/torturer).
If God allowed Satan to kill Job, God would have been the contractor of the hit and Satan would just be the assassin. In my eyes the contractor of a hit carries the responsibility for the murder and not the assassin.
In this scenario the assassin is just a tool or weapon. Then again when it comes to God we humans are nothing but tools.
Is it just me or did I explain the contradiction without using a dogma?
Who says that watching movies, in this case The Godfather (or reading comic books), is not educational?
Tricky that is one of the most common explanation used by apologists but it is fraught with its own problems. To say "God allowed Satan" is problematic. Why would God "allow" his enemy to do anything? Is he too weak, too scared, too aloof to carry out the dirty work himself? If you say they work together then we are faced with the notion that God conspires with his sworn enemy to kick humans around. According to Christian reckoning, evil (personified in Satan) cannot dwell in the presence of God and no one will want to admit that Satan and God are chums behind the scenes.
Why would God "allow" his enemy to do anything? Is he too weak, too scared, too aloof to carry out the dirty work himself?
Don't ask me read the story of Job in the Bible.
Quote:
According to Christian reckoning, evil (personified in Satan) cannot dwell in the presence of God and no one will want to admit that Satan and God are chums behind the scenes.
God being the supreme being obviously knew that Job would not turn away from Him, but why still make a wager with the devil?
I mean the only reason I can think of for God to make an exception so he could make a bet with Satan and allow him to torment Job is (fatherly) pride. But isn't showing off a sin?
Originally Posted by yydanay515God being the supreme being obviously knew that Job would not turn away from Him, but why still make a wager with the devil?
I mean the only reason I can think of for God to make an exception so he could make a bet with Satan and allow him to torment Job is (fatherly) pride. But isn't showing off a sin?
The lord works in mysterious ways they say. You have to remember that.
Originally Posted by yydanay515 Don't ask me read the story of Job in the Bible.
Then how could God and Satan wager over Job?
I have read the book of Job more than once, and I fail to find any place where God made a "wager" with Satan . Can you quote the scripture that says that ?
I have read the book of Job more than once, and I fail to find any place where God made a "wager" with Satan . Can you quote the scripture that says that ?
It was one that went without saying Marian; that's assuming the story is actually true as one has to wonder who was around recording the conversation between God and Satan.
The lord works in mysterious ways they say. You have to remember that.
I find this just an excuse to not act and be docile. Like Jesus I'm not very good at being docile.
Originally Posted by Marianinark
Quote:
I have read the book of Job more than once, and I fail to find any place where God made a "wager" with Satan.
Sure.
It is Job 1, 6-12.
Quote:
Job 1,6-12 6 Now it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them. 7 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. 9Then Satan answered Jehovah, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?10Hast not thou made a hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath, on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.11But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.12And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah.
Job 1,9-12 perfectly describes how Satan 'tricked' God into betting that if he was free to do as he wished Job would turn away from God.
God only accepted the wager on 1 condition: that Satan could not kill Job.
If Job then did indeed cursed God it would have proven that God was not the supreme being. Naturally God won the bet, otherwise He could not have been the supreme being.
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Just like Satan could only harm Job because God gave him permission to do anything but kill Job.
In my eyes the contractor of a hit carries the responsibility for the murder and not the assassin. 
Then again when it comes to God we humans are nothing but tools.
Is it just me or did I explain the contradiction without using a dogma?
Who says that watching movies, in this case The Godfather (or reading comic books), is not educational?
Then how could God and Satan wager over Job?
Sure.
