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maybe in the athesist area you'll find your answer from those who mock God more than you
In Judaism, study was as important as meditation in other traditions. It was a spiritual quest: the word for study, darash, meant ‘to search,’ ‘to go in pursuit of.’ It led not to an intellectual grasp of somebody’s else’s ideas, but to new insight. So rabbinic midrash (‘exegesis’) could go further than the original text, discover what it did not say, and find an entirely fresh interpretation. So you would accuse Jews who study Job via darash or midrash of mocking God?
Or are you one of those 'Christians' who believes that all Jews are already doomed because they don't interpret the old testament like good ol' twin.spin?
Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
II Samuel 24:1
Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
I Chronicles 21:1 ================================================== =====
There clearly appears to be a contradiction here and this happens to be one of the more problematic stories in the Bible. How do Christan spin doctors explain this WITHOUT really exposing critical flaws in their belief system? In addition to just the opening verses, the story is also disturbing when one considers the fact that David is actually INSTRUCTED to commit an act that incurs the wrath of God just so God could take out anger on Israel for some unspecified offense.
David comes out of the episode relatively unscathed, at least with his lie intact, while 70,000 of his people die as a result of some plague sent by God. David commits the offense yet the only problem he has to worry about is making a choice between three punishments. The one he chooses is the lesser of the three evils and the one that does not stress his political office.
I have to agree with TS on this one, YY. Being that God is bigger than we could ever fathom, I'm sure the ones conveying these stories did the best that they could to kind of "dumb it down", so to speak, so that we could sort of understand what was happening.
It doesn't mean that it's not true, or that it doesn't have value in teaching us how real Satan is. What we do know is that God is all powerful and Satan loses in the end. If you are looking for answers to every "perceived" inconsistency in the Bible, you will never find it. Only God has the answers to that, and He won't reveal them to us until we meet Him.
I have to agree with TS on this one, YY. Being that God is bigger than we could ever fathom, I'm sure the ones conveying these stories did the best that they could to kind of "dumb it down", so to speak, so that we could sort of understand what was happening.
It doesn't mean that it's not true, or that it doesn't have value in teaching us how real Satan is. What we do know is that God is all powerful and Satan loses in the end. If you are looking for answers to every "perceived" inconsistency in the Bible, you will never find it. Only God has the answers to that, and He won't reveal them to us until we meet Him.
Have faith, my friend, have faith.
But this story does not require a degree in rocket science to understand what is being said. We have the SAME story told in two books and they say something contradictory to each other. The rest of the story is also suspect because if I sin against God, why kill 70,000 other people?
But this story does not require a degree in rocket science to understand what is being said. We have the SAME story told in two books and they say something contradictory to each other. The rest of the story is also suspect because if I sin against God, why kill 70,000 other people?
YY google JDEP theory.
There you may find reasons why there are OT discrepancies
But this story does not require a degree in rocket science to understand what is being said. We have the SAME story told in two books and they say something contradictory to each other.
Maybe to you but not to me (us). And you're right, it doesn't require a degree in rocket science but it does apparently require something you lack.
Could both verses be true?
You'll say 'No'!
I'll say "Yes!"
If I asked you if God or the Devil led to Christ's crucifixion, I have no idea what you would say.
Most Christians would say that evil and deceit led to Christ's crucifixion and I would agree. I would also quote scriptures that call Jesus the 'Lamb that was slain before the world began'.
Sounds like a pretty intricate plan to me, regardless of how much of a mockery you want to make out of it.
So in these scriptures you post to try and discredit the bible, the Lord moved David via the Devil. It's not a contradiction, it's a biblical Truth. God can and will use whatever He pleases to do His will.
Was it part of God's plan to have Christ betrayed?
Tricky that is one of the most common explanation used by apologists but it is fraught with its own problems. To say "God allowed Satan" is problematic. Why would God "allow" his enemy to do anything? Is he too weak, too scared, too aloof to carry out the dirty work himself? If you say they work together then we are faced with the notion that God conspires with his sworn enemy to kick humans around. According to Christian reckoning, evil (personified in Satan) cannot dwell in the presence of God and no one will want to admit that Satan and God are chums behind the scenes.
Didn't god create satan? If really is the all knowing guy he sells himself as does, he knew ____ good and well what satan would become. It's either that or he really isn't all that loving. something has to give.
Maybe to you but not to me (us). And you're right, it doesn't require a degree in rocket science but it does apparently require something you lack.
Could both verses be true?
You'll say 'No'!
I'll say "Yes!"
If I asked you if God or the Devil led to Christ's crucifixion, I have no idea what you would say.
Most Christians would say that evil and deceit led to Christ's crucifixion and I would agree. I would also quote scriptures that call Jesus the 'Lamb that was slain before the world began'.
Sounds like a pretty intricate plan to me, regardless of how much of a mockery you want to make out of it.
So in these scriptures you post to try and discredit the bible, the Lord moved David via the Devil. It's not a contradiction, it's a biblical Truth. God can and will use whatever He pleases to do His will.
Was it part of God's plan to have Christ betrayed?
Who entered Judas to betray Christ?
Answer: See II Sam 24:1 and I Chronicles 21:1
Alpha,
Good responce!
What you say discredit, some say mock.
He asked who I was calling a dog?
The Bible defines it:
Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
If I asked you if God or the Devil led to Christ's crucifixion, I have no idea what you would say.
Most Christians would say that evil and deceit led to Christ's crucifixion and I would agree. I would also quote scriptures that call Jesus the 'Lamb that was slain before the world began'.
Or maybe jesus just pissed the wrong people off? History is full of proof that those who rock the religious boat don't last long.
Quote:
So in these scriptures you post to try and discredit the bible, the Lord moved David via the Devil. It's not a contradiction, it's a biblical Truth. God can and will use whatever He pleases to do His will.
Was it part of God's plan to have Christ betrayed?
Who entered Judas to betray Christ?
Answer: See II Sam 24:1 and I Chronicles 21:1
So what if god's will requires him to cancel out another's free will? Can you honestly say that one little human is going to throw a wrench in the almighty's plans? it leads back to the same old thing either god has a plan that we aren't going to mess up - no matter what it takes - or our free will gets a little bent from time to time.
no matter how much make-up you put on a pig, it's still a pig...
Can you honestly say that one little human is going to throw a wrench in the almighty's plans?
No, I don't think so at all.
While our free-will will take us out of God's perfect, predestined plan for us, I don't think any of us are going to stop God's ultimate plan. We will just effect our position in it. For example, Satan rebelled against God and yet, I believe, is still being used by God for certain purposes. I also believe he's being used against his will. I believe if Satan knew how the story of Job would end, he would have never started it.
I know you don't believe what we(Christians) believe, but it's not that there aren't answers to these questions. It also not that there aren't good answers to these questions.
It's just that the answers aren't good enough to suit some people.
For some of us, we are completely OK with God being God.
Revelation 22:15
Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
I guess Revelation 22:15 is a good excuse for fascism?
All fascists already hate outsiders, gays, and everyone else who does not see things their way.
Do you really wanna imply that Christianity resembles fascism?
Outsiders, magic, being sexually immoral, murder, idolatry and falsehood are all multi-interpretable.
I mean in the dark ages simple science was seen as magic.
And what appeared to be true (as in the world is flat) now is false.
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So you would accuse Jews who study Job via darash or midrash of mocking God?
Or are you one of those 'Christians' who believes that all Jews are already doomed because they don't interpret the old testament like good ol' twin.spin?
Do you really wanna imply that Christianity resembles fascism?
