The Cat Is Out Of The Bag (Mormon, Muslim, bible)

[Tricky D]

The thing with Christians is that they are not actually listening to what an atheist has to say, simply because they refuse to (or cannot) imagine how life would be as an atheist; if there was no God. To explain atheism to a Christian is to explain colours to someone who is born blind.

Although I could probably grasp the notion how it is to be blind, it is impossible for me to imagine how life would be if I was born blind because sight is a big part of who I am.
And I just don't mean visual sight, also insight into how other people are thinking. But being able to see has made it easier for me to acknowledge that what people are saying (theory) can be completely different from what they are doing (reality). Simply because I have seen it and because once you have seen something (experienced it), it becomes easier to imagine it.
I guess that only Christians who have truly suffered from a depression can imagine how life without a God would be, because life without feeling hope comes very close to a life where God does not exist.
I am not saying that atheism is negative, because a depression has a negative association but sometimes you have to run up against a brick wall (read: a depression) to acknowledge that you are doing something wrong.
At least I did, several times.

Anyhoo, because Christians cannot imagine how life would be if there was no God, it is hard for them to discuss atheism with detachment.

[Mooseketeer]

It never ceases to amaze me what sheltered lives some Christians lead. Is it really that amazing in this day and age, even in the Bible Belt that we Atheists actually exist ?

Are those people ignorant, plain stupid or simply refusing to accept the facts ?

I am sorry for your situation Troop , especially as you were getting on with him. I do not think you should tolerate him trying to convert you and though I realise confrontation at work is not pleasant it might be better to put your foot down now rather than later.

Explain to him politely but firmly that your Atheism is not a flippant philosophy but one you have arrived at after much thinking and research and that you do not need saving or converting. Tell him you appreciate his concerns but that you would appreciate his laying off you in the theological department and that this should not get in the way of your relationship.

I am stunned though that anyone would have the arrogance to try and convert someone , at work as well.
It is rude and unprofessional and if he carries on, it amounts to harassment and bullying.

If he does not stop, maybe you will have to go on the attack and try to convert him to Atheism. Be "aggressive" about your non belief, bore him silly about evolution and take him some literature from Dakwins and Hitchens. Maybe suggest a local atheist/rationalist group to attend !

Seriously though you cannot let a sanctimonious religious prat ruin your work environment. Under which stone do those people crawl from ?
Is it so hard a concept for some to grasp that many, many people do not believe in any God. After all he rejects most of the world's deities. As you say , you have only gone one God further from his....

Atheists like us must stand up and open the eyes of the woefully blind fundies to the fact that not only we do exist, but that we are perfectly normal, happy, well adjusted people , that we do not need Jesus in our lives and that we do not need saving.

For people of any faith to try and convert us is arrogant, uncouth and ill mannered , rude and sanctimonious.

I refuse to be bullied by such people and have always been very open about my lack of faith. It is who I am and I am not ashamed of it. I am proud to be an Atheist and resent the implication that not to believe is a defect to be corrected with spiritual lessons and scripture quotes.

As an adult I feel perfectly able to take myself to a nearby church should the desire grab me and do not need some morons to help me along the way.

Maybe you should tell him that he is achieving exactly the opposite and making you less tolerant towards Christianity. And that trying to convert you shows an immense lack of respect towards you.

I think most Atheists would agree with me that being "saved" is patronising and demeaning and that we are not children to be indoctrinated.

I feel for you because you work and live in such an environment where fundamentalist Christianity is obviously a big thing.
I have very little experience of such extreme Christians but still I do not believe trying to keep quiet is necessarily the best way .

We have nothing to be ashamed of. Being an Atheist is not being a thief, murderer or rapist and I do not see why we should indulge some immature Christians who cannot deal with the truth.

As adults it is high time those people realise that not everybody feels or believes the same.

What you are going through is in essence an unspoken Christian "mafia" who starts "leaning" on you as soon as you try to break rank.
That is not healthy.

I wish you all the best and I hope the situation resolves itself soon.
If your colleague is a decent , good , intelligent man he should get over his prejudices and silly ideas pretty quickly.

If not you might end up a lot more lonely at work, but do you really want a "relationship" based on a lie or at least on you bending and giving in to get some peace ?

Once again, thank goodness that I live in Europe. American fundamentalist Christians are like a different species to me.

If you asked the vast majority of people in an average office in the UK what religion they were, I suspect about 80% would be atheists, the rest a mixture of Christian, Muslims and Hindus.
And none of them would try to convert the other. They would treat the other like a sentient intelligent adult and respect them enough to make their own minds up.

[weatherologist]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

I respect his beliefs, but why are mine seen as something that should be disrespected simply because I see something different?

Troop,
I think that is all that needs to be said. I hope that it works out for you. I am also assuming that from "the cat is out of the bag", this mean that you feel others who did not know will start to treat you differently. I really hope not. Keep us informed. I will keep this situation in my heart.
<>< weather...

[Towhee]

In a way I can identify with you, Troop. Many "Christians" are very derogatory towards members of the church of Christ. They love to say, "You think you are the only ones that are going to be saved", and other down-grading remarks. I have heard them for years, and continue to hear them on these forums. I diligently try to defend our stance, just as you do yours.

[Tesaje]

I think your planned response if it comes up again is a good one, now that it is done. The real problem is that this is at work. Work relationships are not friendships. Many people here seem to be confusing that fact. You can form friendships with people you work with but those are on top of the working relationships.

Working relationships are obligatory relationships whether you like it or not. They are not friendships. (True friendships could get in the way of doing the job - favoritism, for example). Good working relationships mean you try to get along with a friendly demeanor and banter but stay clear of personal hot button issues, especially with people you know will disagree with you. That's why politics and religion are topics off the table. He went way over the line with you. I hope it just gets dropped as nothing good will come of it. The big danger to you is if a whisper campaign starts and the whole outfit starts with the shunning behavior routine.

If it does come up again, and he persists with the proselytizing, you could quite firmly tell him that he has his beliefs and you have yours. Each of you are entitled to them but this sort of discussion is inappropriate at the workplace. Please drop the subject.

I would not pursue any explanations with him in the workplace. It really doesn't belong there. If you really wanted to have an exchange with him, do it over a beer after hours.

I think your answer has been given by several of the Christians here - in real life, you don't go around pushing your beliefs on colleagues. People who do so are out of line. Even people who are quite strident and absolute in their beliefs on this board seem to realize the boundaries of decent behavior in face to face encounters.

His opinions of and prejudices about atheists are really immaterial to his behavior towards you. This is at work and there both legal and social boundaries in that situation so that the wide variety of people who may or may not like each other can work together effectively.

And as for the comment about not having god causing depression, that may be a problem for you but I can assure you, most atheists do not have any such problems with the lack of god. Life is very sunny with no god in it.

Good luck, Troop. I really hope it never comes up again. That is the right way for this to play out.

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by weatherologist

Troop,
I think that is all that needs to be said. I hope that it works out for you. I am also assuming that from "the cat is out of the bag", this mean that you feel others who did not know will start to treat you differently. I really hope not. Keep us informed. I will keep this situation in my heart.
<>< weather...

Well, yes, I would say that the majority of my co-workers are Christians. Probably well over 90% of them. They're not all as wound up in it as this guy is, but the majority of them do go to church on Sundays and what not. There are a few... fundies... at work though. My whole wonder about the situation is why faith needs to be brought up at all in the workplace? I've gotten along well with all of the people I work with, at least, I think I have?? What I don't want it to turn into is where some people think it's necessary to convert me in order for my overall benefit when all it would do is make me miserable. And, that, to me, seems to be the whole point of "witnessing". It makes it seem so disingenuine that it's simply ludicrous. Preach to them, witness to them, and when they continue to turn their back, ostracize them. However, had the subject never been brought up I wouldn't even be making any of these posts nor would I be worried about it. Everything was perfectly fine, and I hope that it still is as I am making my best effort not to let it ruin an otherwise very decent work relationship.

I don't go around behind this guy's back at work and tell people how he tried to convert me or witness to me. I haven't done that and I won't. I respect it as a more or less private conversation. But, and perhaps I'm being a little too overboard with it, I get the suspicion that the cat is indeed out of the bag. I don't want people to look at me any differently and to say that they won't is a bit of a lie. How many times have ordinary, regular Christians come onto this board and made boisterous claims about why Atheists are immoral, that we are missing something, and that we aren't good people? It's pretty safe to say, in my opinion, that my average co-worker has not debated on a forum like this and been introduced to what Atheism is and so it only seems to me that there will be several who would approach it in this manner if they found out. It's a bunch of misnomers, strawmen, and guilt trips that seem to come out of it all directed over a simple non-belief in something that I personally find outrageously irrational and illogical. The difference, of course, is that while I may bite my tongue and not say that, there seems to be a preconceived notion that it is OK to approach someone like me in that fashion because of some divine forebearance given upon them.

So, at the current moment in time, no one has said anything to me. I had other proselytizers to worry about today. In particular, the cultish people behind the union drive that want me to give them my address so they can convince me that organizing with a union is a good thing. But, that of course, is a whole other story for a different thread and forum.

Thank you for your concern, weather and to everyone else. I do understand that not all Christians are like this. However, for some reason, there seems to be some infectious disease in my part of the country that allegedly, the most forgiving, loving, peaceful religion on Earth tends to aspire towards driving a wedge between anybody who does not take a particular agreeance with their agendas and dichotomies. And then they get offended when this is pointed out...

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by Tesaje

And as for the comment about not having god causing depression, that may be a problem for you but I can assure you, most atheists do not have any such problems with the lack of god. Life is very sunny with no god in it.

.

I wanted to address this in particular but I thank you for the eloquent response and consideration as I thought that was a very well thought out post.

I'll have to go back and re-read what I wrote, but I wasn't implying that a lack of belief has caused me depression. In fact, I feel quite pleasant not knowing that the omniscient security camera in the sky is writing me tickets to hell every time I make a mistake. It is rather liberating.

My point was that there are many who will come on this board as well as in real life that try to use this tactic to say that is the cause of any feelings of angst or depression you may have. And, when you think about it, it's such an assinine argument that targets a large population of the country. Given that 85% of this country is Christian affiliated in some way, and that an enormous amount of people are in therapy and on anti-depression medications, that two logical outcomes will come from this:

1. Having faith in God does not make a person any more or less depressive or happy. Perhaps to a believer, their faith is a prop to help them through depressive times but it is not a requirement to be happy. And, given that such a large amount of people in this country are indeed on anti-depressants and/or in therapy, I'm willing to bet that a very large number of them are indeed believers in God and Christians to boot.

2. Because of the vast numbers of these statistics, it is also likely that if that cannard is presented to an Atheist, or perhaps even an Agnostic, that they may be talking to someone who does indeed suffer from depression. Therefore, they make it sound like this wonderful thing that alleviates all feelings of angst, depression, despair, and any other bad feeling and all you have to do is believe in it. At that point, I revert my logic to #1.

Edit: I just realized you weren't referring to my post in that part. My comments still stand though.

[Wendell Phillips]

What is it about Christians that they must need proselytize their faith and propagate their religious beliefs? Are they so insecure - so uncertain of their creed - as to need to convert others to validate themselves? Surely, they must be of little faith that cannot rest assured while there are those that do not share their beliefs. Let them make their separate peace, and leave the rest of us alone.

[freedom]

Originally Posted by GCSTroop

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm just really wondering why there is a double standard attached to all of this? If you really think about it, imagine what would have happened if the first time he brought up his Christian beliefs I persisted and persisted to question him and tried to change his mind. As I said before, I'd be castigated and probably admonished for it by my boss. I'm not looking to get him in trouble. As I said, he and I get along quite well all things being considered. I respect his beliefs, but why are mine seen as something that should be disrespected simply because I see something different?

I am under the impression that had I responded that I believed in Allah or any other deity that it wouldn't have been pursued in the same fashion. But, after all, what difference would it make if I believed in a different God or no God at all? In the Christian mindset, I'm still going to the same place. So, this leads me to one conclusion:

A mere belief that there is something higher, a God if you will, can be seen as an opportunity to change personas of which God you believe in. It must be entirely easier for someone to challenge the faith of a believer in God but not a believer in the Christian one than a disbeliever in all things deistic or divine. This seems to pose an obvious threat to those who believe because the realization that someone disbelieves in God all together makes it entirely different. The assumption, I am thinking, is that at that point it becomes a no limit attempt at trying to convince someone else that their God not only exists but is the ONE and TRUE God. That makes it entirely different when you think about it. Simply trying to convince someone that a God different than the one they believe in must be much easier than convincing someone that a God exists at all.

After all, if someone has faith that a God exists it is merely an attempt at trying to compare doctrinal faith based on evidence from respective holy books. However, it seems to me that trying to approach someone who disbelieves in entirety rules out the availability of using circular logic to prove a point. In the end, the arguments crumble to an unavailability of evidence and logic to challenge someone such as myself and that must be a scary thing for those who do believe. That's the only way I can make sense of it but it's also the reason why I asked the questions that I did. Because, I don't really know what to make of it...

I didn't mean it that way, (sympathy)....just joking that your work companion seems to have limits to his love.
I love you if.......

Sure sounds like being spammed...i'm guessing he was told at some point in his life that it was his job to save you.

Interesting thought you have, yes it would have been much more comforting for him to think you believed in any religion, rather than none. I find that those that are most zealous/fanatical are that way because it is easier to work on others, rather than on themselves.

We are called to let our light shine, not our words press and offend.

godspeed,

freedom

[GCSTroop]

Originally Posted by freedom

I didn't mean it that way, (sympathy)....just joking that your work companion seems to have limits to his love.
I love you if.......

Sure sounds like being spammed...i'm guessing he was told at some point in his life that it was his job to save you.

Interesting thought you have, yes it would have been much more comforting for him to think you believed in any religion, rather than none. I find that those that are most zealous/fanatical are that way because it is easier to work on others, rather than on themselves.

We are called to let our light shine, not our words press and offend.

godspeed,

freedom

Ok, I see what you were saying, freedom. Good post. Thank you for your insight. I apologize if I took it incorrectly.