Cyno
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Ten Truths
https://www.city-data.com/forum/reli...en-truths.html
Please do and if you would be so kind to post your thoughts in that thread, I'll be curious what you think. About how we perceive reality, for example, that you mentioned in that prior comment and that triggered the memory of my Ten Truths.
When I check back into this forum possibly tomorrow, but at your convenience of course. So far it seems we are very much of like mind, and as such you will probably agree with those truths as well. Do let me know.
Thanks!
Finally getting around to this.
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TEN TRUTHS
ONE: There are essentially two realities for all human beings. One reality is as we perceive it to be, our personal reality. The second reality is all that truly exists in the universe, the same for all of us. Our universal truth.
TWO: Human beings cannot know all that exists in the universe. The universe is forever in flux, full of mystery that will forever be marveled and explored by Man as long as he survives.
THREE: The first reality for human beings manifests itself in all the great many beliefs and faiths throughout the world; from Astrology to Zoraoastianism. Many books also stem from these beliefs; the Bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita, Speaking of Faith, The Celestine Prophecy, the Book of Mormon and others. These are the books about men such as Jesus, Mohammad, Moses and Joseph Smith.
FOUR: The second reality, all that exists in the universe, known or unknown, is disclosed to Man most accurately and peacefully by way of well documented history (rather than religious books) and empirical science (rather than theology). Universal truth is all we can accept as reality, the truth, with the most certainty and least conflict. What we can all most reasonably accept as true for all concerned.
FIVE: Faith is spawned from the human inclination to speculate or suppose beyond universal truth as determined and defined by science. Such notions, religions, often involve spirituality or a belief in an energy, power or force. A belief in a deity, god or gods, the supernatural. These notions that go beyond common human awareness are typically based or recognized more by emotions and feelings rather than facts, reason and logic. They typically call for faith rather than proof, all stemming from personal experience rather than common observation or scientific verification.
SIX: Man's ability to theorize is a faculty that allows Man to advance toward greater awareness and understanding of universal truth. The theoretical guides Man to further scientific discovery. However, when conjecture about the supernatural leads to faith and religious inculcation rather facts, reason and logic, great harm can and does come to Man instead. This is because the great majority of people still today cannot accept the confines of science. Instead conjecture is continuously promoted as truth ultimately to the point of creating profound divisions between people resulting in great conflict, violence and war still raging to this day; the Crusades, Protestants v Catholics, Jews v Muslims, Shiites v Sunnis.
SEVEN: The alternative skeptical challenge and test of faith to limit spiritual conjecture is to foster a greater respect for the truth as currently defined or understood by science. Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth with no agenda other than greater knowledge and understanding of universal truth for all human beings. This path or quest of scientific discovery offers the way to peace instead of the sure madness that arises from the significant amount of conflict between differing faiths. As Man learns to universally accept both the great promise and reasonable limits of what science can teach, the source of conflict between Man is diminished, the path toward progress cleared and the prospect of peace improved.
EIGHT: Science fosters the peace of a universal patience and acceptance of our common condition and experience as humans. Faith forbids followers to question thus retarding Man's progress. Science encourages inquiry thus expanding Man's awareness and enlightenment. Faith typically deems any question about God's existence as evil in nature, not to be tolerated. Science has no such restrictions or judgement. Accordingly, there is no manner in which to reconcile these two competing approaches toward revealing Man's universal truth.
NINE: Faith can and does promote goodwill between some people. Creation of beautiful places of worship, help for those in need, community and comfort through difficult times. Even a code of conduct necessary for some to be moral. Yes of course, but with the good there is no need for the bad or falsehoods. Truth is best realized and peace most successfully promoted as more people patiently accept and embrace Man's common reality as revealed, defined and/or revised by science. The movement toward this patience and acceptance very slowly growing from one century to the next is the maturing of Man. His best chance for lasting peace and true understanding of all that exists in the universe, proven or yet to be proven.
TEN: People of faith will deny if not condemn these truths for many reasons; from fear of god to fear of no god. Fear of death to fear of Hell. Typically beginning with the significant influence of inculcation at a young impressionable age, the subsequent effects of confirmation bias over time, development of ego and bigotry all prevent objective reason and logic to prevail for Man as quickly as it should. Instead the condemnation persists even to this day much like when Galileo was even imprisoned for attempting to overcome these same obstacles centuries ago. Much like the Jesuits denounced Elvis Presley. Much like Harry Potter books are banned in Catholic schools today. The ignorance and intolerance persists. Much like the ongoing effort to overcome the ills of racism, sexism, xenophobia and homophobia that also still persist today, the effort to overcome these backward ways very slowly and painfully is the progress of Man that each generation represents better than the last.
ONE: I can go with this
TWO: This too
THREE: You are heading down a leading trajectory here, as all books and records should generally be included, not religious books alone. Everything we understand is subject to the reality we perceive, via our human senses, even those obtained by instrument measurements are still subject to our design and interpretation.
FOUR: Again you are suggesting that something found in any religious book by definition can NOT be 'Universal truth'. While that is often the case, I would say far from absolute. A simple illustration is that many religious literary texts contain historical data. I could go on, but only one instance is required to fracture the 'truth'
FIVE: 'Faith' is a challenging topic, because it's hard to get people to agree upon what it means, so you are trying to define it and speculate on it's origin (as you define it) rather than driving a 'truth', specifically #5 of 10. In Strong's Concordance (going from memory) I believe one definition is: Certainty, based upon knowledge. While many people define it as substituting hope in lieu of evidence and knowledge.
SIX: Agreed, when you believe you have all the answers, questions become the enemy.
SEVEN: "Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth" Accepted by who? Not by the greater religious populous. You say they are wrong they say you are, refer to Truth #1 and consider that YOUR truth might be a sub of perceived truth. Don't get me wrong, I fall into the same camp, but I could be wrong too. It just seems most likely to me based on my perceptions.
EIGHT: Reprise of #6
NINE: More a description of an observation and hope for our species than a 'truth'. Don't forget in all of your optimism to calculate in the element of predatory ambition, that is entrenched in the human condition.
TEN: I can go with most of this, although again, more an observation than a truth. In this one however, the phrase 'backward ways' implies more of a choice to be archaic, than the recognition that most of those those qualities are the result of human development. It's popular to condemn that behavior, that is all too often instinctual, born out of tribalism. IMO it's just going to take more time for those instincts to be diluted to the level of inconsequential.
You asked, I offer my thoughts, nothing more. The great thing about this effort, is that you are THINKING and working to inspire others to do the same, nice job.
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Last edited by Cyno; 09-28-2021 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 09-29-2021, 11:00 AM
LearnMe
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Finally getting around to this.
ONE: I can go with this
TWO: This too
THREE: You are heading down a leading trajectory here, as all books and records should generally be included, not religious books alone. Everything we understand is subject to the reality we perceive, via our human senses, even those obtained by instrument measurements are still subject to our design and interpretation.
FOUR: Again you are suggesting that something found in any religious book by definition can NOT be 'Universal truth'. While that is often the case, I would say far from absolute. A simple illustration is that many religious literary texts contain historical data. I could go on, but only one instance is required to fracture the 'truth'
FIVE: 'Faith' is a challenging topic, because it's hard to get people to agree upon what it means, so you are trying to define it and speculate on it's origin (as you define it) rather than driving a 'truth', specifically #5 of 10. In Strong's Concordance (going from memory) I believe one definition is: Certainty, based upon knowledge. While many people define it as substituting hope in lieu of evidence and knowledge.
SIX: Agreed, when you believe you have all the answers, questions become the enemy.
SEVEN: "Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth" Accepted by who? Not by the greater religious populous. You say they are wrong they say you are, refer to Truth #1 and consider that YOUR truth might be a sub of perceived truth. Don't get me wrong, I fall into the same camp, but I could be wrong too. It just seems most likely to me based on my perceptions.
EIGHT: Reprise of #6
NINE: More a description of an observation and hope for our species than a 'truth'. Don't forget in all of your optimism to calculate in the element of predatory ambition, that is entrenched in the human condition.
TEN: I can go with most of this, although again, more an observation than a truth. In this one however, the phrase 'backward ways' implies more of a choice to be archaic, than the recognition that most of those those qualities are the result of human development. It's popular to condemn that behavior, that is all too often instinctual, born out of tribalism. IMO it's just going to take more time for those instincts to be diluted to the level of inconsequential.
You asked, I offer my thoughts, nothing more. The great thing about this effort, is that you are THINKING and working to inspire others to do the same, nice job.
Well thanks for this! Curious why you post your comments here rather than in the thread of this topic, but no real matter. Not to me anyway, but I have wanted to capture all comments about these truths in that thread for easy reference. Would you mind posting your comment there instead of here?
Either way, unfortunately, I am out of time as I first glance at what you write here. I'm looking forward to considering and responding to your thoughts when I have more the kind of time I prefer to do so. Here or in the Ten Truths thread as you prefer. I can go either way, but either way, thanks again as I sign off from this forum with a bit more a lift than usual!
Yes. Here's to thinking!
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Old 09-30-2021, 03:28 PM
Arach Angle
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Originally Posted by Cyno View Post
Finally getting around to this.
ONE: I can go with this
TWO: This too
THREE: You are heading down a leading trajectory here, as all books and records should generally be included, not religious books alone. Everything we understand is subject to the reality we perceive, via our human senses, even those obtained by instrument measurements are still subject to our design and interpretation.
FOUR: Again you are suggesting that something found in any religious book by definition can NOT be 'Universal truth'. While that is often the case, I would say far from absolute. A simple illustration is that many religious literary texts contain historical data. I could go on, but only one instance is required to fracture the 'truth'
FIVE: 'Faith' is a challenging topic, because it's hard to get people to agree upon what it means, so you are trying to define it and speculate on it's origin (as you define it) rather than driving a 'truth', specifically #5 of 10. In Strong's Concordance (going from memory) I believe one definition is: Certainty, based upon knowledge. While many people define it as substituting hope in lieu of evidence and knowledge.
SIX: Agreed, when you believe you have all the answers, questions become the enemy.
SEVEN: "Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth" Accepted by who? Not by the greater religious populous. You say they are wrong they say you are, refer to Truth #1 and consider that YOUR truth might be a sub of perceived truth. Don't get me wrong, I fall into the same camp, but I could be wrong too. It just seems most likely to me based on my perceptions.
EIGHT: Reprise of #6
NINE: More a description of an observation and hope for our species than a 'truth'. Don't forget in all of your optimism to calculate in the element of predatory ambition, that is entrenched in the human condition.
TEN: I can go with most of this, although again, more an observation than a truth. In this one however, the phrase 'backward ways' implies more of a choice to be archaic, than the recognition that most of those those qualities are the result of human development. It's popular to condemn that behavior, that is all too often instinctual, born out of tribalism. IMO it's just going to take more time for those instincts to be diluted to the level of inconsequential.
You asked, I offer my thoughts, nothing more. The great thing about this effort, is that you are THINKING and working to inspire others to do the same, nice job.
Can this process evaluate any claims, at all, to see what one(s) match what we see better?
What it does is say we need to look for a reliable process. But it never requires the reader (or devout follower) to do anything but wait to be told.
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#334 Add to LearnMe's Reputation Report Post
Old Yesterday, 09:07 AM
LearnMe
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Finally getting around to this.
ONE: I can go with this
TWO: This too
Interesting to note that you can so quickly agree or accept the first two while more than a few others even had some issue with these. Glad to move onto three in this case anyway.
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 AM
LearnMe
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THREE: You are heading down a leading trajectory here, as all books and records should generally be included, not religious books alone. Everything we understand is subject to the reality we perceive, via our human senses, even those obtained by instrument measurements are still subject to our design and interpretation.
True. Of course there are many other books of all sorts we can find some fault with, but also of course the subject or focus here is on religion. Religion and/or science and critical thinking anyway. Also true that "perception is everything." What I try to address straight off with truth #1.
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Old Yesterday, 09:16 AM
LearnMe
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FOUR: Again you are suggesting that something found in any religious book by definition can NOT be 'Universal truth'. While that is often the case, I would say far from absolute. A simple illustration is that many religious literary texts contain historical data. I could go on, but only one instance is required to fracture the 'truth'
Though true again, I did not write that nothing of value can be found in religious books. I am simply making a case for which is the most likely path to arrive at the truth most "accurately and peacefully." Documented history rather than religious books, for example. Empirical science rather than theology. Which is best from an objective universal truth standpoint? Emphasis on universal, that we don't tend to fight about?
Also as I wrote, where we can accept the truth with "the most certainty and least conflict."
None of this means that a holy book doesn't have something of value to offer. Or any other book for that matter, but for the sake of choosing a path that leads more universally to universal truth without conflict, my 4th truth is how I cast my vote.
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Old Yesterday, 09:25 AM
LearnMe
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FIVE: 'Faith' is a challenging topic, because it's hard to get people to agree upon what it means, so you are trying to define it and speculate on it's origin (as you define it) rather than driving a 'truth', specifically #5 of 10. In Strong's Concordance (going from memory) I believe one definition is: Certainty, based upon knowledge. While many people define it as substituting hope in lieu of evidence and knowledge.
True again and I have many times pointed to the fact that faith is the result of many different influences that can cause different people to believe what they do. No question. Nevertheless, I offer what I think is a fairly common understanding about how many comes to speculate about what is going on around him. I think it's more than just my "speculation" as to origin. "Substituting hope in lieu of evidence and knowledge certainly fits my understanding of how faith comes to be as well. The many ways faith can come to be, "typically based or recognized more by emotions and feelings rather than facts, reason and logic" as I wrote in truth #5.
Seems we might agree about this too, generally speaking.
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Old Yesterday, 09:33 AM
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SIX: Agreed, when you believe you have all the answers, questions become the enemy.
SEVEN: "Science is the most universally accepted effort to arrive at truth" Accepted by who? Not by the greater religious populous. You say they are wrong they say you are, refer to Truth #1 and consider that YOUR truth might be a sub of perceived truth. Don't get me wrong, I fall into the same camp, but I could be wrong too. It just seems most likely to me based on my perceptions.
The greater religious populous does not have a commonly accepted "effort to arrive at the truth." Please find me a world-wide effort more commonly accepted than science. No matter the country. No matter the religion, all of which have little in the way of commonality when it comes to establishing the truth, there are scientists in all variety of countries watching the stars, going into space, looking into microscopes, testing theories, medicines, working on universal problems (like cancer) that make for a universal effort that transcends the boundaries of religion and sovereign borders. Quite unlike any other efforts by comparison. This is what I mean by my 7th truth. People don't go to war over different ideas about how to cure cancer, for example. Discovering the true nature of things by way of the telescope or microscope or stethoscope...
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Old Yesterday, 09:41 AM
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EIGHT: Reprise of #6
NINE: More a description of an observation and hope for our species than a 'truth'. Don't forget in all of your optimism to calculate in the element of predatory ambition, that is entrenched in the human condition.
Perhaps a bit of "reprise," but I think there is more to eight that adds some worthwhile "meat to the bones" here.
You are not the first one to suggest my use of the word "truth" can be substituted by other words when it comes to these observations of mine. Observations, steps of logic, insights, whatever. Perhaps I should not have used the word truth, since of course all anyone might consider along these lines is "entrenched in the human condition." Nevertheless, I like to think I argue truth, as best as I am able of course. As perhaps we all should even though we all know we won't all agree about the facts, reason or logic that has us believing what we do. If this were not the case, there would be no need to posit what I do.
My hope has always been to find the flaw in what I suggest to be truth and/or the better way. Not so much to argue that truth can be an objective matter (per my truth #1).
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Old Yesterday, 09:46 AM
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TEN: I can go with most of this, although again, more an observation than a truth. In this one however, the phrase 'backward ways' implies more of a choice to be archaic, than the recognition that most of those those qualities are the result of human development. It's popular to condemn that behavior, that is all too often instinctual, born out of tribalism. IMO it's just going to take more time for those instincts to be diluted to the level of inconsequential.
You asked, I offer my thoughts, nothing more. The great thing about this effort, is that you are THINKING and working to inspire others to do the same, nice job.
You will have to help me to better split this hair between what you agree is truth and/or what we can all argue is observation. I don't think backward ways is necessarily a choice. In fact I think people who cling to backward ways do so for another wide host of reasons not always so clearly by choice. Just like many a religious belief is not always just a simple choice. Everything about us is really a function or result of human development. Much of what I explain is well founded by documented history that describes that development.
Thanks for your thoughts and positive affirmation with respect to my intentions here. I can agree that among a few goals that had me write out these Ten Truths, getting people to think about all this kind of thing is certainly one of them. Your input is much appreciated more than you know. Thanks again!