Question for people that believe in a deity (prophets, Islam, worship)

[rubyskye]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

I don't. The Bible, which I believe says there is only one God and one way to Him and this is belief in Jesus as
Savior.

[TKramar]

Originally Posted by Marodi

So, for those that believe as defined in some specific deity, what makes your deity more probable than another?
Examples: Why is your God more probable than Allah?
Why is Allah more probable than Yahweh?
Why is your deity more probable than mutiple?

Using a (your) religious text does not count as a reason. That's like going to court and essentially presenting hearsay since there are conflicting religious texts. You need some external evidence (preferably scientifc and historically accurate) to support your deity.

So obviously this question dosen't really apply to atheists or agnostics

Let's say I believe in God...that's just what I happened to call him. Abdul, down the road from me, might call him Allah, and Isaac might call him Yahweh...or Adonai. What proscribes us from all believing in the SAME deity, but calling him by different names?

[TKramar]

Originally Posted by ainulinale

Could you elaborate on this?

Neither the Orthodox Jews or the Muslims consider Jesus Christ to be anything more than a prophet. I was curious about this myself, and looked into it. I thought maybe they just called Jesus by another name--Muhammed. Totally different guy.

[ainulinale]

Originally Posted by TKramar

Let's say I believe in God...that's just what I happened to call him. Abdul, down the road from me, might call him Allah, and Isaac might call him Yahweh...or Adonai. What proscribes us from all believing in the SAME deity, but calling him by different names?

I thought we already answered this...a God is not fully defined by his name but by what he does. If the person I call God does something that contradicts with what another person calls God does, then they are not the same god.

[TKramar]

So maybe it IS possible that there is more than ONE God, but they each think themselves to be the ONE TRUE GOD...or perhaps their believers' think that.

But as far as "what they do", I looked into something with great interest. The example used was what WE know as the Golden Rule. Each of the major religions of the world have a SIMILAR tenet. So maybe the morality defining our laws is really all the same? Even if we don't even share a belief in God.

I actually believe in God... and call him God. But I see no reason that He can't be called by other names.

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA

I don't. The Bible, which I believe says there is only one God and one way to Him and this is belief in Jesus as Savior.

Of course there is only one God, and only one way to him but it depends on how you interpret that passage of the bible.

Christ is the only way to the father, which is the Christ consciousness or the Son of God also Known as Tat.

The Christ consciousness is the intelligence who guides this universe, it acts in conjunction with OM or the Holy spirit, which is the sacred word or vibration who supports the whole creation.

Christ's name is Jesus, Krishna's name is Jadava but they are known as Christ and Krishna because they manifested the Christ consciousness.

If you read both scriptures they speak of the same things, their description of God is the same, if you study any sacred scripture carefully it will be the same way.


Let's analyze some sacred scriptures starting with the book of Shiva.

Attributes Of Siva



1 Non-dual, indivisible, non-doer, non-enjoyer,
Unattached, without qualities,
I am Siva (auspiciousness), I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

2 Immovable, without impurities, imperishable, inexhaustible,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

3 Without Prana, without mind, without senses, unseen,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

4 Truth, auspiciousness, good, beautiful, resplendent,
Existence-knowledge-bliss, all-full, pure happiness, peaceful.
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

5 Consciousness, mass of knowledge, full of knowledge,
All-pervading like ether, consciousness alone, full of That,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

6 Pure, stainless, immovable,
Beyond the reach of mind and speech, imperishable, steady,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

7 Eternal, without attributes, supreme bliss,
Without form, Hrim and Om (Pranava), rock-seated Self,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

8 All-full, Paramatman, knowledge and bliss,
Witness, Seer, the fourth state, self-knowledge, bliss.
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

9 Truth, knowledge, endless, bliss,
Existence-knowledge-bliss, self-luminous,
I am Siva I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

10 Immortality, alone, changeless, Self
Pure, perfect, illumined, existence-knowledge-bliss,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

11 Without defects, pure, spotless,
Eternal, formless, without qualities, superconsciousness,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

12 Self, Supreme Self, consciousness,
Full of light, bliss, that which is indicated by ‘Tat-Tvam-Asi—Thou art That’.
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

13 ‘I am He’, ‘I am Siva’, ‘I am Brahman’,
Pure, existence-knowledge-bliss, all-full Self,
I am Siva, I am Siva of the form of knowledge and bliss.

Now the Bhagavad Gita.

These verses deal with the soul.

Bhagavad Gita 2.17

"That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul."

Bhagavad Gita 2.20

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain."

Bhagavad Gita 2.23

"The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind."

Bhagavad Gita 2.24

"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."

Bhagavad Gita 2.25

"It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body."

Bhagavad Gita 2.29

"Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all."

These with the Christ (Krsna) consciousness

Bhagavad Gita 2.55

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O Partha, when a man gives up all varieties of desire for sense gratification, which arise from mental concoction, and when his mind, thus purified, finds satisfaction in the self alone, then he is said to be in pure transcendental consciousness."

Bhagavad Gita 2.56

"One who is not disturbed in mind even amidst the threefold miseries or elated when there is happiness, and who is free from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind."

Bhagavad Gita 2.57

"In the material world, one who is unaffected by whatever good or evil he may obtain, neither praising it nor despising it, is firmly fixed in perfect knowledge."

Bhagavad Gita 2.58

"One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness."

Bhagavad Gita 2.59

"The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness."

Bhagavad Gita 2.60

"The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna, that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them."

Bhagavad Gita 2.61

"One who restrains his senses, keeping them under full control, and fixes his consciousness upon Me, is known as a man of steady intelligence."

Bhagavad Gita 3.3

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who try to realize the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service."

These with how a true devotee of God seeking the Christ consciousness should behave and act

Bhagavad Gita 3.6

"One who restrains the senses of action but whose mind dwells on sense objects certainly deludes himself and is called a pretender."

Bhagavad Gita 3.7

"On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior."

Note Karma Yoga means to perform good deeds just for the sake of it without expecting anything in return and offering your good deeds to God.

Bhagavad Gita 3.16

"My dear Arjuna, one who does not follow in human life the cycle of sacrifice thus established by the Vedas certainly leads a life full of sin. Living only for the satisfaction of the senses, such a person lives in vain."

Bhagavad Gita 3.17

"But for one who takes pleasure in the self, whose human life is one of self-realization, and who is satisfied in the self only, fully satiated—for him there is no duty."

Bhagavad Gita 3.30

"Therefore, O Arjuna, surrendering all your works unto Me, with full knowledge of Me, without desires for profit, with no claims to proprietorship, and free from lethargy, fight."

Bhagavad Gita 3.31

"Those persons who execute their duties according to My injunctions and who follow this teaching faithfully, without envy, become free from the bondage of fruitive actions."

Bhagavad Gita 3.32

"But those who, out of envy, disregard these teachings and do not follow them are to be considered bereft of all knowledge, befooled, and ruined in their endeavors for perfection."

Now the bible, where Jesus deals with the Christ consciousness as unconditional l ove.

John 13.31

When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.

John 13.32

If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.

John 13.34

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 13.35

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

John 14.1

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

John 14.2

In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

John 14.3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

John 14.4

You know the way to the place where I am going."

John 14.6


Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14.7

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14.8

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

John 14.9

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say,

Let's see the Quran, dealing with the Soul and Christ consciousness

2:223 Your wives are your tilth; go, then, unto your tilth as you may desire, but first provide something for your souls, and remain conscious of God, and know that you are destined to meet Him. And give glad tidings unto those who believe.

4:38 And those who spend their possessions on others to be seen and praised by men, the while they believe neither in God nor in the Last Day; and he who has Satan for a soul-mate, how evil a
soul-mate has he!

Here the Quran is speaking of the Same that Krishna speaks in the Bhagavad gita about doing things out of selfishness and for material gain.

4:171 O FOLLOWERS of the Gospel! Do not overstep the bounds in your religious beliefs, and do not say of God anything but the truth. The Christ Jesus, son of Mary, was but God's Apostle - His promise which He had conveyed unto Mary - and a soul created by Him. Believe, then, in God and His apostles, and do not say, "a trinity". Desist for your own good. God is but One God; utterly remote is He, in His glory, from having a son: unto Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth; and none is as worthy of trust as God.

This one is hard to crack, and might lead to confusion but let's analyze it.

Here they are speaking of One God, which means there can't be other God, so we all worship the same God under different interpretation according to the Quran.

Here the Quran is also referring to God in it's highest expression as pure spirit, which goes beyond the trinity, and he is also referring to the God's apostles (avatars) which Christ, Krishna, Moses and Buddha are some examples and the quran is encouraging us to believe in these avatars!

[4:173] As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, He will fully recompense them, and shower them with His grace. As for those who disdain and turn arrogant, He will commit them to painful retribution. They will find no lord beside GOD, nor a savior.

If you've read this far (thanks for the patience) we can see that essentially all sacred scriptures say the same things.

God is nothing else but truth and righteousness, stay in truth and righteousness and you will be in Christ's consciousness. this last verse of the Quran is speaking also of Karma as painful retribution which is nothing else but que consequences of wrong deeds.

So, even though the focus might be different (Quran sees God as Righteousness) (Krishna as Sacrifice and concentration on spirit not the senses) and (Christ as unconditional love) they are essentially the same concepts.

Turning away from the senses and doing your actions as an offering to Vishnu (God) will lead to righteousness and unconditional love, which is the Christ conciousness.

Finally the description of Shiva is very similar to Christ description of the father or Quran's descrption of Allah

Do you agree?

if you do why?

if you don't why?

Respect and regards people!

[Travelling fella]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

Yet if your God is all of the above, why has he authored seperate religious Books that counterdict each other which makes your God a Liar.
I may have a small mind and all, but I still understand when a God is talking out of both sides of His mouth. When you have a God that tells you we are save by works, and then he tells us we are saved by faith, and then he tells us to spread the faith by the sword, and then he tells us to love our enemies. Well, then you have to know, someone is not telling us the truth. And if that is your concept of God, then he is not unique at all, he is just another liar.

dear campbell read my previous post please

Originally Posted by Marodi

So far, no one has been able to make an argument that their god is 'the' god, or that theirs is more probable. The best we have is saying the judeo-christian and islam god is the same. But what about Hindu?

dear Marodi you can read the attributes of Shiva or the excerpts from the Bhagavad gita above and use your discernment.

Originally Posted by Bideshi

I will accept the possibility* that Allah is the same God as Yahweh (Jehova) because both Moslems and Christians and Jews believe there is only one God (the Bible tells us that God has many names). That they believe different things about that God is another matter for a different discussion. Shiva, however, is utterly different. If Shiva has any actual existence, he (in his male form) is a demon. The Hindu pantheon of thousands of "dieties" cannot be compared to the concept of one true God. Shiva is on his second wife and has an addiction to hashish. Does that sound like God to you?

*Possibility but probably not. In the Koran, Allah scolds Jesus for allowing men to believe that He is God's son. Either whoever wrote the Koran is wrong or Allah is not the God of the Bible. I don't wish to have a Fatwa placed on my head so I will not give my opinion.

Dear Bideshi, the problem with hinduism is that to the eyes of a western mind it will look bizarre unless you know how to interpret it.

First, Hinduism is very diverse, there are many paths to the supreme being some go Through Shiva, others Through Krishna, others Through Shaktism (The worship of God as divine mother) but for all the supreme God is Parambrahma or Ishwara which translates to the Father of Christians.

Second, the Hindu Gods, aren't deities they are concepts or expressions of the supreme being, or faces of that supreme being that people uses to identify with him, that is the reason why some see shiva as the supreme being (in it's highest expansion) because it's also considered the destructive aspect of the universe.

Third, regarding mythology, the mythologies surrounding shiva aren't meant to be taken literally, they are concepts explained in a poetical and romantic way, and that's why it's better to ask for the advise of a swami to intepret them.

Let's see some example of that let's see shiva as the destroyer / regenerator

The dance of Lord Siva is for the welfare of the world. The object of His dance is to free the souls from the fetters of Maya, from the three bonds of Anava, Karma and Maya. He is not the destroyer but He is the regenerator. He is the Mangala Data and Ananda Data, bestower of auspiciousness and bliss. He is more easily pleased than Lord Hari, He grants boons quickly, for a little Tapas or a little recitation of His five letters.

You can witness the dance of Siva in the rising waves of the ocean, in the oscillation of the mind, in the movements of the senses and the Pranas, in the rotation of the planets and constellations, in cosmic Pralaya, in epidemics of infectious diseases, in huge inundations and volcanic eruptions, in earthquakes, landslips, lightning and thunder, in huge conflagrations and cyclonic storm.

The burning grounds are the abodes of Siva. Rudra is the destructive aspect of the Lord. Lord Siva dances in the crematorium with Kali, in His ten-armed form. The Siva Ganas also join with Him in the dance.

He dances quite gently. If He dances vehemently the whole earth will sink down at once. He dances with His eyes closed, because the sparks from His eyes will consume the entire universe. The five activities of the Lord, Panchakriyas, viz., Srishti (creation), Sthiti (preservation), Samhara (destruction), Tirobhava (illusion) and Anugraha (grace), are the dances of Siva.
May you all comprehend the true significance of the dance of Siva. May you all dance in ecstasy in tune with Lord Siva and merge in Him and enjoy the Sivananda, the final beatitude of life!

As you can see, Shiva is the destructive aspect of universe, the fact that this force exists can't be denied even by atheists, because we all know the consequences of earthquakes, tsunamies, epidemics, etc so we know this force of destruction exists, and in shaivism it is poetically described as shiva.

Now let's see Shiva as Shakti or the Female energy in the universe

The power or active aspect of the immanent God is Sakti. Sakti is the embodiment of power. She is the supporter of the vast universe. She is the supreme power by which the world is upheld. She is the Universal Mother. She is Durga, Kali, Chandi, Chamundi, Tripurasundari, Rajesvari. There is no difference between God and His Sakti, just as there is no difference between fire and its burning power.

He who worships Sakti, that is, God in Mother form, as the supreme power which creates, sustains and withdraws the universe, is a Sakta. All women are forms of the Divine Mother.
Siva is the unchanging consciousness. Sakti is His changing power which appears as mind and matter. Saktivada or Saktadarsana is a form of monism or Advaitavada.

A Sakta does Sadhana which helps the union of Siva and Sakti, through the awakening of the forces within the body. He becomes a Siddha in the Sadhana, when he is able to awaken Kundalini and pierce the six Chakras. This is to be done in a perfect practical way under the guidance of a Guru who has become perfect. The Sakti must be awakened by Dhyana, by Bhava, by Japa, by Mantra-Sakti. The Mother, the embodiment of the fifty letters, is present in the various letters in the different Chakras.

When the chords of a musical instrument are struck harmoniously, fine music is produced. Even so, when the chords of the letters are struck in their order, the Mother who moves in the six Chakras and who is the very self of the letters, awakens Herself. The Sadhaka attains Siddhi easily when She is roused. It is difficult to say when and how She shows Herself and to what Sadhaka. Sadhana means unfolding, rousing up or awakening of power or Sakti. Mode of Sadhana depends upon the tendencies and capacities of the Sadhaka.

Sakti may be termed as that by which we live and have our being in this universe. In this world all the wants of the child are provided by the mother. The child’s growth, development and sustenance are looked after by the mother. Even so, all the necessaries of life and its activities in this world and the energy needed for it, depend upon Sakti or the Universal Mother.

No one can free himself from the thraldom of mind and matter without Mother’s grace. The fetters of Maya are too hard to break. If you worship Her as the great Mother, you can very easily go beyond Prakriti through Her benign grace and blessings. She will remove all obstacles in the path and lead you safely into the illimitable domain of eternal bliss and make you free. When She is pleased and bestows Her blessings on you, then alone you can free yourself from the bondage of this formidable Samsara.

The first syllable which a child or a quadruped utters is the name of the beloved mother. Is there any child which does not owe its all to the affection and love of its mother? It is the mother who protects you, consoles you, cheers you and nurses you. She is your friend, philosopher, protector and guide throughout your life. Human mother is a manifestation of the Universal Mother.

Now these are the levels of Shiva the highest one could be considered God, or Tat or the Father.

(1) The lower Siva who dissolves the world and who liberates Jivas from their bondage.

(2) The higher form is called Parapara. In this form Siva appears as Siva and Sakti (Ardhanarisvara). It has the name Param-Jyoti. Brahma and Vishnu were not able to comprehend this Jyoti.

(3) Beyond these two forms is the Param, or the ultimate being from whom Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra originate. It is purely the Saiva form. It is formless. It is the Sivam of the Saiva Siddhanta. It is Para Brahman of the Upanishads and Vedantins.
The Mahavishnu of Vishnu Purana corresponds to Param of Saiva Siddhantins. Narayana or the higher Vishnu corresponds to the Param-jyoti of Appar or Saiva Siddhantins. The lower Vishnu does the function of preservation. He corresponds to the lower Siva.

What is the inner meaning of all the Saiva allusions about Vishnu worshipping Siva and all the Vaishnava allusions about Siva worshipping Vishnu? The lower Siva must take Narayana, the Parapara or Param-jyoti as his Superior. The lower Vishnu must take Param-jyoti or the Parapara as his Superior. The higher Vishnu and higher Siva are identical. They are inferior to Param, the Highest.

In that highest condition called Siva Mukti, there is no duality. No one can see anything. One merges himself in Sivam or the Highest. If you wish to see, you will have to come to the stage immediately below the Highest.
The Siva Murti or manifestation is inferior to the real ‘Sivam’ which is formless.

[ainulinale]

Originally Posted by TKramar

So maybe it IS possible that there is more than ONE God, but they each think themselves to be the ONE TRUE GOD...or perhaps their believers' think that.

But as far as "what they do", I looked into something with great interest. The example used was what WE know as the Golden Rule. Each of the major religions of the world have a SIMILAR tenet. So maybe the morality defining our laws is really all the same? Even if we don't even share a belief in God.

I actually believe in God... and call him God. But I see no reason that He can't be called by other names.

Simply because there are some similarities between all religions doesn't mean they're are talking about the same god.

[TKramar]

Originally Posted by ainulinale

Simply because there are some similarities between all religions doesn't mean they're are talking about the same god.

This is something I cannot know to be true or false until AFTER I have some kind of proof one way or the other...after my mortal body dies.

[Marodi]

Originally Posted by TKramar

This is something I cannot know to be true or false until AFTER I have some kind of proof one way or the other...after my mortal body dies.

So do you believe according to some religious texts? Cause even you say you don't know which god(s) will be in the afterlife, assuming there is one.