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That's not true. If I am in a city of 20 million people and I run into the same individual 1000 times in diverse parts of that city that means something. I don't know what it means but that's more than coincidence, and I am an atheist. I don't believe in God but I do believe in fate. If a person is standing under a wall that has stood for 200 years and at the precise moment I am under the wall it suddenly falls on me, that's fate. It was my time to die. But I don't attribute that to any Godly force because science has proven supernatural forces do not intervene in human existence.
regarding you are an atheist and you don't believe in God you "do believe in fate."
what then do you believe "fate" is ?
and if you don't attribute happenings to "any Godly force because science (etc.)"
then what are the scientific findings regarding "fate" ?
has fate been scientifically proven, documented? links to scientific research findings on "fate" would be great to see.
which branch of science do you regard as authoritative in proving fate?
I believe in angels and when I pray, I pray to angels. I do not believe in a personal god. Does that count as atheistic?
I pray for guidance, but I am not aware of receiving it.
I am aware of a force in the world - the Tao - and my intuition is strong. I can feel what to do - it's moving with water - the Tao - not guiding - moving, and I'm open to it.
To clarify, yes, I know that random things and coincidences happen to most people every day, but what I am talking about is when things happen in such a way that in hindsight, someone might think that something was just meant or not meant to be -- similar to "intuition in hindsight", but not exactly.
This is motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, etc. The key is the bolded: "in hindsight".
My professional life has been almost spookily good ... opportunities / success have just fallen into my lap, and I don't even know why. Conversely my personal life has often been a flustercluck, and I don't even know why.
So you tell me -- were both of these things "meant to be" because they happened that way?
Or it could just be true that I'm very good at what I do professionally, and somewhat inept at what I do personally. Or ... and I think this is actually the case ... I wasn't chasing professional success nearly as ardently as I was chasing personal success. Sometimes you want something a little too much, care too much, try too hard, and it backfires.
Or perhaps it was "meant to be" that my son died at age 30? After all, there were no obstacles put in the way of THAT. The skids were totally greased, there. God must have wanted him dead, right? See, you can't just apply this kind of thinking to one kind of event, and not to others.
Once is chance. Twice is a coincidence. Three or more times means Someone is knocking at your door.
But only your door?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
I am sure the atheists here will say even if it happens a 1000 times it means nothing.
No. If you had that evidence, I would look in to it. The problem is you do not have that evidence. I am sure theists will ignore that they do not have the evidence (because they usually do).
That's not true. If I am in a city of 20 million people and I run into the same individual 1000 times in diverse parts of that city that means something. I don't know what it means but that's more than coincidence, and I am an atheist. I don't believe in God but I do believe in fate. If a person is standing under a wall that has stood for 200 years and at the precise moment I am under the wall it suddenly falls on me, that's fate. It was my time to die. But I don't attribute that to any Godly force because science has proven supernatural forces do not intervene in human existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
regarding you are an atheist and you don't believe in God you "do believe in fate."
what then do you believe "fate" is ?
and if you don't attribute happenings to "any Godly force because science (etc.)"
then what are the scientific findings regarding "fate" ?
has fate been scientifically proven, documented? links to scientific research findings on "fate" would be great to see.
which branch of science do you regard as authoritative in proving fate?
i guess what i'm wondering is:
saying you "believe in fate" that something happened, it was just meant to be
sounds a whole lot like
believing in God's will that something happened, it was just meant to be
and if lack of scientific evidence is why a person does not "believe in God"
how can they "believe in fate" for which there is also no scientific evidence.
that's what comes to mind reading the view expressed in post above.
This is motivated reasoning, confirmation bias, etc. The key is the bolded: "in hindsight".
My professional life has been almost spookily good ... opportunities / success have just fallen into my lap, and I don't even know why. Conversely my personal life has often been a flustercluck, and I don't even know why.
So you tell me -- were both of these things "meant to be" because they happened that way?
Or it could just be true that I'm very good at what I do professionally, and somewhat inept at what I do personally. Or ... and I think this is actually the case ... I wasn't chasing professional success nearly as ardently as I was chasing personal success. Sometimes you want something a little too much, care too much, try too hard, and it backfires.
Or perhaps it was "meant to be" that my son died at age 30? After all, there were no obstacles put in the way of THAT. The skids were totally greased, there. God must have wanted him dead, right? See, you can't just apply this kind of thinking to one kind of event, and not to others.
I agree. Not only my professional life, but also my personal life has been very good. My wife used to do social work with female victims of crime, from rape victims to unwanted arranged marriages and forced prostitution. This had such a negative emotional impact on my wife that she had to stop doing this work. I find the logical conclusion of the idea that some people were meant to suffer disgusting, and the fact that many people do have less than happy lives is evidence against a loving universe and a helping guiding force.
saying you "believe in fate" that something happened, it was just meant to be
sounds a whole lot like
believing in God's will that something happened, it was just meant to be
and if lack of scientific evidence is why a person does not "believe in God"
how can they "believe in fate" for which there is also no scientific evidence.
that's what comes to mind reading the view expressed in post above.
Lack of scientific evidence may not be a reason to firmly state that there is no god. But lack of scientific -- or other conclusive -- evidence is a legitimate reason to have great doubt.
Not sure if this the right forum, but here goes --
I am an agnostic, but it seems to me in looking over my 63-years-so-far life, that is something is meant to be, achieving or getting it is easy, and if it not meant to be, there are obstacles put in my path.
To give an example of something bad: If I am about to go on a vacation, but then I have trouble getting time off, I have an unexpected large repair bill the week before I am set to go (meaning less spending money), and then I develop a bad headache at the last minute, but I decide to go anyway -- I will end up having a lousy time and being sorry I went.
To give an example of something good: if I am just thinking about getting a puppy and on the way home from work the next day, I see a "Free Puppies" sign by a large cage with puppies in it, I fall in love with one of them, and she turns out to be the best non-human companion of my entire life.
So, do you thinks things like that are just coincidence or not?
P.S. The reason I asked for the opinions of atheists and agnostics is because it seems to me that many Christians say that Jesus/God is ALWAYS personally responsible for one's good luck or bad, and I personally just don't believe that.
I think if you are determined enough to achieve a goal, if you put in enough effort, you'll probably achieve it.
There are all kinds of caveats to that of course. Things like physical ability, wealth, time, other responsibilities etc.
But all things taken into consideration most things are possible, it's just having the mental determination.
It's funny when people achieve a goal and assume God helped them with it when in fact all the effort came from them, but in the end it doesn't matter what you think helped get you there, as long as you get there.
Whatever the case I think we should not waste our lives and we should strive to be the best people we can be.
I agree. Not only my professional life, but also my personal life has been very good. My wife used to do social work with female victims of crime, from rape victims to unwanted arranged marriages and forced prostitution. This had such a negative emotional impact on my wife that she had to stop doing this work. I find the logical conclusion of the idea that some people were meant to suffer disgusting, and the fact that many people do have less than happy lives is evidence against a loving universe and a helping guiding force.
The fact that we humans have demanded that God MUST be all the Omni's to qualify to BE God is at base the actual cause of your rationale, Harry. Why do we get to decide what God MUST BE or be able to DO? That was why I rejected all the Omni's (except for omnipresence which I experienced). Our human expectations and demands about God are just that human expectations and demands without any basis.
I agree. Not only my professional life, but also my personal life has been very good. My wife used to do social work with female victims of crime, from rape victims to unwanted arranged marriages and forced prostitution. This had such a negative emotional impact on my wife that she had to stop doing this work. I find the logical conclusion of the idea that some people were meant to suffer disgusting, and the fact that many people do have less than happy lives is evidence against a loving universe and a helping guiding force.
a parent can be the most loving and helpful parent there is, and yet no child is happy all the time. That premise and expectation is simplistic, unrealistic, and flawed from the start. it is not evidence of anything, except an utterly flawed premise, absence of logic, and lack of critical thinking.
As an adult, both "happiness" and "suffering" are determined by how we respond to whatever situations or circumstances come our way in life. Yes painful things happen to everyone, that is simply part of being human. However pain and suffering are not the same. Many paths of religion and spirituality recognize that, and so do modern psychology and recovery from trauma recognize that.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 09-05-2023 at 10:44 AM..
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