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I think Harry was simply saying that lived experience illustrates that god, if god existed, is not those "omnis". Not "demanding" that he must be. Simply stating that he is not. As you have apparently done yourself for the most part.
The universe is neither out to get us nor out to help us. It simply IS.
If your god is omnipresent then he sees all the suffering and does nothing about it. If you're okay with that, that's great. I would not be. It's one of the reasons that I find atheism to be preferable. I don't have to spend time understanding god's Mysterious Ways or whatever. He has no ways to begin with.
Correct. My argument applies to an ignorant god, an indifferent god, an evil god, but also to a non-existent god.
I was thinking about this as I was taking Mr Yap for his walk. You are implicitly admitting the guiding force in people's lives is themselves. I agree.
False, my argument does not rely on an omnimax god. I am an equal opportunity atheist, I doubt the existence of all gods, omni or not.
Not false. Your concept of God carries with it the implicit belief that if God does not intervene materially He is either ignorant, indifferent, evil, or unloving. That presumes that God CAN intervene materially or He doesn't exist. It is understandable that the material reality is all that you see or think matters. I was the same way as an atheist, but I was wrong. So are you, IMO.
Not false. Your concept of God carries with it the implicit belief that if God does not intervene materially He is either ignorant, indifferent, evil, or unloving. That presumes that God CAN intervene materially or He doesn't exist. It is understandable that the material reality is all that you see or think matters. I was the same way as an atheist, but I was wrong. So are you, IMO.
Is god all-powerful, or not?
Either he is or he isn't (presuming that he exists, which I don't believe he does).
the person wasn't trying to repair their car. they were trying to bake cookies.
that's why looking in a car repair manual is ineffective.
that's also why looking to science for information on divinity is also ineffective.
because it is an inadequate resource.
the analogy illustrates someone using the wrong tool for the job.
And an inability to recognize, identify, and utilize an effective tool for the job.
But, but, but...
Why compare science to the use of only one book?
The search for truth, about the existence of a god in this case, should involve all resources at our disposal if arriving at the truth is the goal or objective. Not just science but science too of course. This means we consider ALL books on the subject. Holy books included. All there is to know and consider. From all religions or religious leaders. Religious people. Then too other books including those having to do with science. In most cases not to prove a god exists but to simply explain phenomena once attributed to a god is actually now known, proven, to be caused by natural forces. History books too, and on and on. Coupled with our other sources of learning. Including our own life experiences and observations.
It's all these sources I'm referring to that don't prove in any demonstrative or convincing manner that a god exists. Or we'd all be believers as I often note. The entire sum total of all there is to consider and nowhere has anyone been able to prove or demonstrate the existence of anything like a god in any detectable, confirming or convincing manner. Quite the contrary in fact. Giving rise to the many different versions of such notions. All the different religions.
This is why your analogy of using one book or another to fix a car or bake a cake doesn't work at all too well when it comes to properly concluding the truth of such matters.
Not false. Your concept of God carries with it the implicit belief that if God does not intervene materially He is either ignorant, indifferent, evil, or unloving.
Irrelevant to your false argument that I was presuming an omni god. Ignorant, indifferent, evil, and unloving gods do not mean they must be omni.
Perhaps you should stop moving goal posts, it can not be good for your back.
And they are not beliefs, they are logical conclusions based on what 'ignorant', 'indifferent', 'evil', and 'unloving' means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That presumes that God CAN intervene materially or He doesn't exist,
Naturally I am 'presuming' an intervening god, because we are talking about a guiding force. How can a god guide without intervening?
Fate is just chance with a sad or happy ending. A madman fires one shot into a crowd of a thousand people. One person is going to get hit and die. There's nothing spiritual or supernatural about it, it's just random chance that one person was hit because someone had to be hit and killed. It was his time to die. That's fate but there's nothing supernatural about it. One guy out of 300 million players hit the 2 billion dollar jackpot Powerball. He bought one quick pick--a single ticket and hit all the numbers. That's fate. He was fated to win that massive amount--the largest payout in the history of the lottery.
Sorry thrill, but I think you are using the wrong word to describe what you are trying to describe. On the one hand you are correct to explain there's nothing supernatural about it, but the word "fate" suggests there is...
Not false. Your concept of God carries with it the implicit belief that if God does not intervene materially He is either ignorant, indifferent, evil, or unloving. That presumes that God CAN intervene materially or He doesn't exist. It is understandable that the material reality is all that you see or think matters. I was the same way as an atheist, but I was wrong. So are you, IMO.
There is hardly anything more problematical when it comes to recognizing cause and effect than attempting to explain what goes on around us by way of a belief in a god. Problematical if it's a problem when facts, sound reason and logic, evidence and proofs are not in any way effectively applied.
If on the other hand those involved agree to rely upon anyone's and everyone's personal beliefs and feelings about such things, then of course describing what a god might be or do or intend is no problem at all. Material reality need not matter or apply. Nothing really that can be proven one way or another.
Who is right or wrong?
Depends on what criteria one requires to establish what is the truth and what is not and even as this is true, since we all choose whatever criteria matters most to us, no one is wrong about what they believe. Not everyone is right about the truth of these matters however. That's obvious.
As long and as hard as these simple facts have been addressed in this forum, it's amazing how the same basic arguments go round and round over and over again almost as if presented for the first time instead of too many times to count already...
Either he is or he isn't (presuming that he exists, which I don't believe he does).
Is this question much different from asking whether a ghost is invisible or not?
Seems that step one is to establish the existence of anything before arguing about the nature of such a thing, because without establishing the actual existence of such a thing obviously the qualities of such a thing can be whatever anyone wishes it to be.
"Without any form of checks or balances there can be no check or balance."
Not sure if this the right forum, but here goes --
I am an agnostic, but it seems to me in looking over my 63-years-so-far life, that is something is meant to be, achieving or getting it is easy, and if it not meant to be, there are obstacles put in my path.
To give an example of something bad: If I am about to go on a vacation, but then I have trouble getting time off, I have an unexpected large repair bill the week before I am set to go (meaning less spending money), and then I develop a bad headache at the last minute, but I decide to go anyway -- I will end up having a lousy time and being sorry I went.
To give an example of something good: if I am just thinking about getting a puppy and on the way home from work the next day, I see a "Free Puppies" sign by a large cage with puppies in it, I fall in love with one of them, and she turns out to be the best non-human companion of my entire life.
So, do you thinks things like that are just coincidence or not?
P.S. The reason I asked for the opinions of atheists and agnostics is because it seems to me that many Christians say that Jesus/God is ALWAYS personally responsible for one's good luck or bad, and I personally just don't believe that.
I would like to respond to your post, but first I must step outside the He loves me, He loves me not box, that is presented in the P.S. of your post. A loyal child is answerable to their parents, and the parents guidance is there to guide them through it all, in the shared togetherness and understanding of open hearts.
When you speak of guidance and look at those who claim to be the master of their own destiny, you can look at the fallen nature and see where that leads, to a dead end, while claiming that to be life.
I look to God for guidance to see past the multitudes who pervert His word. The Satan/serpent claimed to be a guide full of light, but he had to enquire of the woman and seek directions to the tree with the forbidden fruit first. Then told the lie of being answerable to no one and being their own gods, and being the master of a self and alone destiny as if he was some guide to personal good and greatness. While claiming himself and his beguiling lie to be the final word over God and them. Tricking them into being answerable to him, a ruthless dictator only seeking his own power, where his perceived greatness only comes with the lessening of others. Abraham knew God and with that came the promise of fulfillment, that extended eternally beyond his time in this world.
I love having someone to be answerable too, and with shared open hearts it is not a one sided thing and is there to guide you through it all. You speak of the puppy you found and loved and made yourself answerable to that puppy and I figure your loved puppy is answerable to you when you call the puppies name. And there is no companionship when no one is answerable to each other and all you have left is pointing the finger of blame when things go bad, while patting yourself on the back and claim to be all good, which is what Adam did in his response to God. Choosing to own up to nothing, while stepping all over everyone else. Which followed in the Satan/serpents beguiling lie. And even after that God let them know the way back...
I'm sure even your puppy knows love and forgiveness and seeks mercy even when he does his business on the carpet. Even a dog can learn to accept the guidance of correction and know right from wrong, to eat the curds and honey. Even my puppy learned to go outside and stayed within the boundaries of an unfenced yard without supervision, as he was trusted in that. I remember one morning he was let out and I was still sleeping, when he came in he ran full speed through the dutch doors that were closed at the end of the hall and then a full speed leap into my water bed to wake me up.
I'm sure people who claim to be their own guide use their man created gps satellites that were sent above while claiming to be self reliant. In the old days guides who had been there were called on to lead expeditions. It has been a while since I read it and am going by distant memory, however, I remember a prophet who was told by God to go somewhere and return the way he came and another man who was supposed to be an older prophet told him to go back another way and the prophet accepted his word that went against God's word to him and on his way back was killed by a bear. As Jesus Christ said, seek God and the Kingdom of Heaven first... and let that be the constant. Which is why those who claim to measure light in giving it a speed, don't know light as their constant. Because in doing so they make darkness their constant.
I still make wrong choices and have learned to own it and accept correction and learn from it, prune it and grow from there. Which is way better than serving your own image, never being corrected and end up living a lie.
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