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I would like to start a discussion about amazing experiences that have strengthened your faith and your belief in God. First of all, I do not consider myself Muslim or Christian. I have read the Bible, the Quran and I still refer to both, I respect both being from God, although they are slightly different, I am not too concerned about belonging to a specific religion. One of the most amazing experiences of my life was listening to the Quran being recited for the first time, I did not understand one word of Arabic at the time but I remember just crying uncontrollably. I can't even describe the feeling but it is a feeling of being completely fullfilled and feeling total peace in your heart, both religions refer to it as "food for the soul", Can't think of a better description! I have read the Bible and sometimes, certain verses have touched me in similar ways. I am not an oversensitive person, actually I am very logical and rational, I do not belong to any religion but I have no doubt in my mind that God is real based on my personal experiences. There are billions of people that have experienced similar things and it cannot be just a matter of "collective delusion". After such experiences, I just can't think of anything more important in this existance than cultivating your spirituality and getting closer to God.
There are billions of people that have experienced similar things and it cannot be just a matter of "collective delusion".
The fact that billions have experienced something similar emotionally is precisely what makes it "collective".
Maybe the emotional reaction you describe does not count as a "delusion" - I see the same thing happen. It's still not proof of God's existence to me. It's something else that is experienced collectively.
There are billions of people that have experienced similar things and it cannot be just a matter of "collective delusion". After such experiences, I just can't think of anything more important in this existance than cultivating your spirituality and getting closer to God.
Whenever I hear something like this I like to refer back to a well documented type of "collective delusion."
I am not saying that your experiences are necessarily that sort of thing, but emotions can be a powerful thing, and the brain can trick itself, especially with a little encouragement from others.
Ok, I have a story to share, more like an answer to prayer, but it absolutely confirmed for me that God is real (not that I've ever doubted it) and He does hear our prayers and answers them according to His will.
We have four adopted children...after our third adoption I thought we were done. Every so often though, I would feel this tug in my heart that perhaps there was another child out there for us. I would dismiss it thinking that it couldn't possibly happen as we had no money for another adoption (our children are from Korea, adoption costs are high). I also knew my husband would think I was nuts if I told him I wanted another child.
Anyway, I would pray about it every so often, asking God to show me His will and whether or not He wanted us to have another child. If that was the case, He would have to make it very clear that it was His desire and not just mine. I even told Him that a situation would have to be "dropped into our laps" in order for me to be sure that it was what He wanted.
Well sure enough, after about a year or so of praying, we got a call from our adoption agency. There was a little girl that had been brought home by another family but they couldn't keep her...did we want this child? My prayer had been answered. Also, because this other family had paid the bulk of the adoption fee we only had to pay for an update on our homestudy, no other costs were involved.
Now I know you athiests will say it was just a coincidence, that it would have happened even if I hadn't prayed about it....well I say that's hogwash. It was an answer to prayer just as sure as I'm sitting here
There are billions of people that have experienced similar things and it cannot be just a matter of "collective delusion". After such experiences, I just can't think of anything more important in this existance than cultivating your spirituality and getting closer to God.
Personally, I think that the wonders of the world and all that we don't yet (or possibly never will) understand inspire these feelings in millions of people, and the "God" thing is a matter of semantics. There are wonders in this world that are bigger than us, and some people just prefer to refer to them as "God."
Of course when you get into the organized religion part, it gets more complicated and politics come in. But that's another issue.
Ok, I have a story to share, more like an answer to prayer, but it absolutely confirmed for me that God is real (not that I've ever doubted it) and He does hear our prayers and answers them according to His will.
We have four adopted children...after our third adoption I thought we were done. Every so often though, I would feel this tug in my heart that perhaps there was another child out there for us. I would dismiss it thinking that it couldn't possibly happen as we had no money for another adoption (our children are from Korea, adoption costs are high). I also knew my husband would think I was nuts if I told him I wanted another child.
Anyway, I would pray about it every so often, asking God to show me His will and whether or not He wanted us to have another child. If that was the case, He would have to make it very clear that it was His desire and not just mine. I even told Him that a situation would have to be "dropped into our laps" in order for me to be sure that it was what He wanted.
Well sure enough, after about a year or so of praying, we got a call from our adoption agency. There was a little girl that had been brought home by another family but they couldn't keep her...did we want this child? My prayer had been answered. Also, because this other family had paid the bulk of the adoption fee we only had to pay for an update on our homestudy, no other costs were involved.
Now I know you athiests will say it was just a coincidence, that it would have happened even if I hadn't prayed about it....well I say that's hogwash. It was an answer to prayer just as sure as I'm sitting here
I'm skeptical Deb, because it sounds as if all you were looking for was an "excuse" to adopt another child and when one came along it must have been divine intervention. Deb, I think one of the hardest things to do as an atheist is to question someone's "special moments in life" as being that of deistic proportions without sounding absolutely rude and that's not what I'm trying to do.
My only statement is that I always hear how much God works within the natural world and people are willing to concede that God did it. My question is this: Under a regular set of circumstances, would it have been naturally possible for this woman to call you and say that she had a kid for adoption?
Would there have been no other conceivable way for this woman to call you unless you had prayed? When I think of something deistical answering prayers, I am not looking for things that can occur naturally. I think this was a grand time in your life, and I'm happy for you that things worked out but I don't think god had anything to do with it. Amazing things happen to people all over the world, of all different religions, all of the time. I wonder, if everyone's praying to a different god, who's answering the prayers???
Very nice story, Deb. Actually I absolutely believe in God bringing people together for a reason. When I met my fiance, it was almost the same thing. I was not looking for anybody or even wanted a relationship. We both had different needs and different life stories, we have totally complemented each other for the last 4 years. She had a teenage son that needed a male figure in his life and I was also in need of someone in my life. I do not believe these things are coincidence. We met at a training seminar, very unusual place to meet someone anyways. I do not believe in the "coincidence" theory either.
I'm skeptical Deb, because it sounds as if all you were looking for was an "excuse" to adopt another child and when one came along it must have been divine intervention. Deb, I think one of the hardest things to do as an atheist is to question someone's "special moments in life" as being that of deistic proportions without sounding absolutely rude and that's not what I'm trying to do.
My only statement is that I always hear how much God works within the natural world and people are willing to concede that God did it. My question is this: Under a regular set of circumstances, would it have been naturally possible for this woman to call you and say that she had a kid for adoption?
Would there have been no other conceivable way for this woman to call you unless you had prayed? When I think of something deistical answering prayers, I am not looking for things that can occur naturally. I think this was a grand time in your life, and I'm happy for you that things worked out but I don't think god had anything to do with it. Amazing things happen to people all over the world, of all different religions, all of the time. I wonder, if everyone's praying to a different god, who's answering the prayers???
Well no, not really. This situation (referred to as a disrupted adoption) happens very rarely...also, the other family lives in the same state we do. The agency wanted a family in the same state as it made the paperwork, ect. much easier for everyone involved. Also, as I said, the money that we had to pay was minimal, this was a huge issue and would have kept us from persuing a "regular" adoption. With all of these factors coming into play, I still say it was an answer to prayer and not just a coincidence...but of course I know you will disagree with me
Well no, not really. This situation (referred to as a disrupted adoption) happens very rarely...also, the other family lives in the same state we do. The agency wanted a family in the same state as it made the paperwork, ect. much easier for everyone involved. Also, as I said, the money that we had to pay was minimal, this was a huge issue and would have kept us from persuing a "regular" adoption. With all of these factors coming into play, I still say it was an answer to prayer and not just a coincidence...but of course I know you will disagree with me
I will disagree with you but not to sound like a jerk. It's just a matter of opinion really.
All I'm saying is that if I'm looking for something divine I'm looking for something that could not happen ANY other way. Even if the chances of what happened to you naturally were 1%, I think for all logical purposes we have to assume that it happened naturally. If I have a .000000001 chance of winning the lottery, and I win, it's only because my numbers came up. It wasn't divine inspiration, SOMEONE had to win.
Here are some things that would give me great pause in considering that God were not real:
An amputee grows his/her limb back to a fully functional limb (I'll go to church on Sunday, Wednesdays, and Saturdays if this ever occurs)
They find rabbit fossils in the Precambrian Era.
If I was given the gift of unaided flight. i.e.- I could just fly at will wherever I wanted to go
My wife not getting mad at me for something at least once a day... (OK, that one's beyond miraculous status)
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(OK, that one's beyond miraculous status)
