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Christians, what convinces you so that your "when I found Jesus" testimonies about addictions, "sins" and other bothersome behaviors 'left" you , that there was not some other non supernatural explanation for this. I really doubt myself these so called stories.
Christians, what convinces you so that your "when I found Jesus" testimonies about addictions, "sins" and other bothersome behaviors 'left" you , that there was not some other non supernatural explanation for this. I really doubt myself these so called stories.
Like what?
I get what you're saying in some situations. There are cases where someone goes to rehab or some clinic and gives the credit to Jesus. I can understand people looking at that and saying, "uh, no, it was the program that saved you."
What about other cases, like waking up and the addition is gone. Are they just lying?
My father was a life-long smoker. A pack-a-day man. Camels if I recall correctly.
Sometime about 3 years after he became a Christian he quit smoking cold turkey and never looked back. He was very proud of that, and nursed the fiction that it could be equally easy for anyone else. He of course "gave glory to god" for this, but I know the real impetus for him quitting. He had come home exhausted from work one day and fell asleep on the couch with one of those Camels in his mouth and set fire to the couch. My mother smelled the smoke and woke him up and informed him that he was by god never going to do that to HER furniture ever again. My mother was the sweetest and happiest woman on earth, except on about 2 or 3 occasions in her entire life, this being one of them. He wouldn't DARE fail to quit after that. Besides they had worked for 45 years to have a new home of their own and he came close to burning it down.
Years later I read up on nicotine addiction, which is better understood now (the above incident was in the mid 1960s) and I forget the term for it but there are smokers who are fairly resistant to nicotine and can smoke fairly heavily but never reach that tipping point that gets them physically hooked. I'm pretty sure my Dad was one of those; his "habit" was mental rNather than physical.
While this is illustrative of the usual routine where god gets credit for everything that goes well and never bears any responsibility for things that don't, I'm not claiming that no one ever can legitimately credit their faith with positive changes in their lives. Everything we do has both positive and negative effects because everything is a tradeoff.
The best way I've heard it explained is by M. Scott Peck, with his "stages of spiritual development." His first state is "chaotic" which is basically the almost childlike, unaware, and often criminal mind. The next is "blind faith in authority" which is not meant to describe fundamentalism specifically but certainly that type of faith fits into that category. If you come into the faith as a troubled adult with bad habits then the transition from chaotic to blind faith can be cathartic and eye-opening and you can make a lot of committed progress to self-improvement. Like a lot of things with religion, it isn't the religion itself as such but its resonance with and facilitation of personal development that you are ripe for, often because you have "hit bottom" because of the natural consequences of your maladaptive living habits. Religion is in the right place at the right time, and like it does for things like morality, it simply seizes it and takes credit for being its source.
My father was a life-long smoker. A pack-a-day man. Camels if I recall correctly.
Sometime about 3 years after he became a Christian he quit smoking cold turkey and never looked back. He was very proud of that, and nursed the fiction that it could be equally easy for anyone else. He of course "gave glory to god" for this, but I know the real impetus for him quitting. He had come home exhausted from work one day and fell asleep on the couch with one of those Camels in his mouth and set fire to the couch. My mother smelled the smoke and woke him up and informed him that he was by god never going to do that to HER furniture ever again. My mother was the sweetest and happiest woman on earth, except on about 2 or 3 occasions in her entire life, this being one of them. He wouldn't DARE fail to quit after that. Besides they had worked for 45 years to have a new home of their own and he came close to burning it down.
Years later I read up on nicotine addiction, which is better understood now (the above incident was in the mid 1960s) and I forget the term for it but there are smokers who are fairly resistant to nicotine and can smoke fairly heavily but never reach that tipping point that gets them physically hooked. I'm pretty sure my Dad was one of those; his "habit" was mental rNather than physical.
While this is illustrative of the usual routine where god gets credit for everything that goes well and never bears any responsibility for things that don't, I'm not claiming that no one ever can legitimately credit their faith with positive changes in their lives. Everything we do has both positive and negative effects because everything is a tradeoff.
The best way I've heard it explained is by M. Scott Peck, with his "stages of spiritual development." His first state is "chaotic" which is basically the almost childlike, unaware, and often criminal mind. The next is "blind faith in authority" which is not meant to describe fundamentalism specifically but certainly that type of faith fits into that category. If you come into the faith as a troubled adult with bad habits then the transition from chaotic to blind faith can be cathartic and eye-opening and you can make a lot of committed progress to self-improvement. Like a lot of things with religion, it isn't the religion itself as such but its resonance with and facilitation of personal development that you are ripe for, often because you have "hit bottom" because of the natural consequences of your maladaptive living habits. Religion is in the right place at the right time, and like it does for things like morality, it simply seizes up it and takes credit for being its source.
Good post, as usual, with food for thought. Yes, there are times when someone knows they have to change or face the inevitable. Look at Robert Downey, Jr. I know we don't know what he does in his private time, but this looks like someone who really turned things around, from drugs and prison to earning something like $50 million for the Avengers (great movie, by the way).
I've also heard people talk about how they became a Christian and lost all desire for drugs, alcohol, porn, etc. There are also cases of people becoming Christians who didn't kick whatever habit they had. I personally don't know anyone in either camp, so I either have to take what people say at face value or think they're either lying or have other motivations.
I think if anyone here posted any supernatural experience, such as healing, it would be dismissed outright. It's like the OP. The experience could be real, but there are people who simply won't believe.
Good post, as usual, with food for thought. Yes, there are times when someone knows they have to change or face the inevitable. Look at Robert Downey, Jr. I know we don't know what he does in his private time, but this looks like someone who really turned things around, from drugs and prison to earning something like $50 million for the Avengers (great movie, by the way).
I've also heard people talk about how they became a Christian and lost all desire for drugs, alcohol, porn, etc. There are also cases of people becoming Christians who didn't kick whatever habit they had. I personally don't know anyone in either camp, so I either have to take what people say at face value or think they're either lying or have other motivations.
I think if anyone here posted any supernatural experience, such as healing, it would be dismissed outright. It's like the OP. The experience could be real, but there are people who simply won't believe.
I don't really credit personal testimonies of overcoming things like addiction as proving anything other than that they overcame addiction. I'm willing to credit the person with their own breakthrough without taking away from it by crediting it to an invisible guy in the sky. I'm even willing to credit their belief in the invisible guy as a mental fulcrum that gave them leverage. We trick ourselves into doing things we don't really want to do all the time. It happens every morning when we stagger out of our nice warm bed to get ready for work or school.
My attitude is reinforced by the facts you point out here, that people overcome besetting personal weaknesses and challenges all the time, and they seem to do it about as often as non-Christians as they do as Christians. And also, they fail pretty much regardless of their metaphysics overall.
Christians often like to imply, if not outright claim, that their beliefs keep them out of trouble, but this is belied by the fact that they are not at all under-represented in prisons, in divorce statistics, in mental health issues, etc. In fact recently someone posted in this spot a link to research showing that atheists are under represented in prison populations, although I personally do not care to make too much of that because some atheists tend not to want that label and it is inherently a self-reported association. What is probably most significant about that is that I daresay most Christians would expect atheists to be conspicuously over represented in the criminal world, and that just isn't happening.
When we come to being with the Lord we have a spiritual feeling from within, we want to change move away from our old and sinful ways. Once we achieve something like overcoming an drug addiction or whatever, doesn't mean we throw God away and say I can handle it myself, because obviously one couldn't handle it before.
We want to remain focused by being included with the Body of Christ, sanctified whereby we gain edification and clarification from members who keep us strong as the main focus is on God.
When we fall away from the Body of Christ is where one makes ones mistakes and goes out on his own and says one can handle it by oneself.
There comes a point in posting when you realize that nothing you say will convince the skeptic. So doubt away and have a nice day.
With that said, I have seen too many examples of changed lives and personalities to doubt the stories. One strong example that convinced me, was how I was changed. Nothing to do with addictions, just a general change for the better and I lost my fear of death.
I'm even willing to credit their belief in the invisible guy as a mental fulcrum that gave them leverage.
My attitude is reinforced by the facts you point out here, that people overcome besetting personal weaknesses and challenges all the time, and they seem to do it about as often as non-Christians as they do as Christians. And also, they fail pretty much regardless of their metaphysics overall.
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I'm actually MORE impressed when Christians give up addictions. When I stopped drinking I was dealing with the physical and psychological effects of alcohol on my body and central nervous system as well as my behaviors, habits, friendships and thinking patterns.
For a Christian they have all that as well as Satan and the possibility of demons tempting them or possessing them, the flesh, not having enough faith. All kinds of extra stuff to deal with that I didn't have.
When we come to being with the Lord we have a spiritual feeling from within, we want to change move away from our old and sinful ways. Once we achieve something like overcoming an drug addiction or whatever, doesn't mean we throw God away and say I can handle it myself, because obviously one couldn't handle it before.
You could have but you probably needed peer support and or pressure to change. The change, whatever it was, came entirely from you and your personal efforts,; you just thought it was god.
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We want to remain focused by being included with the Body of Christ, sanctified whereby we gain edification and clarification from members who keep us strong as the main focus is on God.
Basically called friendship. The "god within" is merely you focusing on you and perhaps helping others, again all you, no one helping except friends.
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When we fall away from the Body of Christ is where one makes ones mistakes and goes out on his own and says one can handle it by oneself.
This is called projection. Do not assume everyone cannot make changes by themselves.
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Originally Posted by Mr5150
There comes a point in posting when you realize that nothing you say will convince the skeptic. So doubt away and have a nice day.
With that said, I have seen too many examples of changed lives and personalities to doubt the stories. One strong example that convinced me, was how I was changed. Nothing to do with addictions, just a general change for the better and I lost my fear of death.
Odd that you needed religion to lose the fear of death, many of us actually came to grips with it after leaving religion. I dealt far better with the loss of my mother and wife as an atheist. My dad's death was more traumatic and I was closer to my mom emotionally so I suspect you have a placebo in religion or god belief.
I would go as far to say, you still fear death and only the false unsubstantiated promises of a hereafter based on the text in some ancient book helps to to deal with your mortality.
The two posters above IMO are projecting their own weaknesses, fears or failings and assume everyone is the same. This is the problem with religion, it tells you you are sick and weak and then sells you the cure. Best scam ever. I say this from experience, at a vulnerable time in my life, I was ripe for a "quick fix" and the issues I was facing and problems I had, I saw no way to fix it on my own, just like these posters. The problem was that the church exasperated my situation to worse than what it really was. Secular counselling would have been cheaper and quicker. Yes you still pay for the "free fix". In the end I realised that I needed peer support or more poignantly, a willing ear and ALL that I improved on was totally me all along. I have not regressed since deconversion.
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Originally Posted by eddie gein
I'm actually MORE impressed when Christians give up addictions. When I stopped drinking I was dealing with the physical and psychological effects of alcohol on my body and central nervous system as well as my behaviors, habits, friendships and thinking patterns.
For a Christian they have all that as well as Satan and the possibility of demons tempting them or possessing them, the flesh, not having enough faith. All kinds of extra stuff to deal with that I didn't have.
This is an honest post as it at least shows that some can manage to realise change is needed.
I also saw many folk blaming the lil' red guy when they slipped up and went on a binge. They were so into the Koolaid that they blamed the simple flu as an attack from satan.
The poor imaginary red dude get way to much credit and he must be exhausted after a day of tempting and attacking all believers, 2M+ of them, do the math and see how fast he has to move. He even appears to be more active than his imaginary counterpart.
I was about 10, and my parents had a bunch of friends over partying. They all decided to go out to dinner at the best restaurant in town.
It was probably about 9 PM when we got there, and as we were wading through the carpet to a big table, we passed another big dinner party. It was Billy Graham and about 10 other people fawning over him, kinda like the last supper pictures.
Anyway my mother, an atheist, loudly proclaimed "Oh Jesus Christ", but then recanted and said "oh, it's only Billy Graham".
No one was struck by lightening, no booming voices, thus proof that there is no god.
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