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Um...guess you guys missed the OP...it asked: "Is there tension between" Freedom OF and Freedom FROM religion:
Let me hip you to sumthin'--There IS tension between the two...LOTS of it! That either of YOU...or I...have managed to exist without "tension" as non-religious in a country/world that is saturated with religion not withstanding.
My post addressed an aspect of the issue.
"Freedom from religion" does not mean "Freedom from the existence of other people's religions" as you're implying.
In this country, you can believe in anything you want... or not. That is what "Freedom of religion" and "Freedom from religion" mean. They work together in harmony.
But if you have an issue with what other people believe, then that is your own problem now isn't it?
There sure is!! I see you are from the U.S. Here is a repost (with a couple modifications) of a post I put up just a couple months after I joined the board 4 years ago:
I think this illustrates the main problem...especially in places like the United States. To try to separate people from Religion is to try to separate most of the population from their culture...and that will be nearly impossible to do.
Just look around...there's a church on every other corner...and they are exempt from paying taxes.
Since the Europeans took the country from the native people (NOT cool!) it was from that point on, FOUNDED on Religious Principles...read The Constitution, and The Declaration of Independence...they've got "CREATOR" & "GOD" right in them. Most of our laws are based on religious ethics. In every government building, and on every piece of our currency...EVERY coin and EVERY bill...is written "In God We Trust"...TRILLIONS of pieces of currency. It's such a part of this country, it wouldn't even be this country without it. And beyond that the WORLD is influenced by it...why do you think it's "2014"? It's our "way of life", our history, and our culture...that's just the way it IS.
Please don't take this as an insult, because there is no insult intended---This country is not going to be a very comfortable place for one wanting "freedom FROM religion"...MOF they will be constantly aggravated (I know from experience).
People that have an aversion to the heat would avoid or leave Central America...People that have an aversion to the cold would avoid or leave Iceland...And you wouldn't see many Jews sticking around or going to Iran. Some places are just a "better fit".
You are NEVER going to change the base culture of this country to much of a degree. You'll change a law here or there, but you'll still have to look at lots of buildings with crosses & stars on them that you pick up the tax burden they don't...see the title GOD (and the proclamation that WE trust in Him) written on most things relative to our government and even carry it on your person with your money...listen to "God Bless America" belted out at public events, and the Pledge of Allegiance (one nation under GOD) being recited...and though we typically only do the 1st verse, check out the last verse of our National Anthem (The Star Spangled Banner). I could go on and on...But the point is...it is not just the general population, but it's the country itself, including the government, that is intrinsically religious. And I don't think that, short of a big asteroid, that will change much over the next few hundred years, if ever. If a person is going to stick around the U.S.A. they better learn to not let religion bother them, or they will be just about constantly aggravated...and trying to change it will be a lesson in futility and a complete and total waste of their time & effort.
I have learned to accept that the govt will claim to have a neutral position...while their deeds belie their words. How much more of an indirect promotion of ANYTHING could there be than to make it EXEMPT FROM TAXES?!
If you insist on "freedom FROM religion"...you will have to live elsewhere than the U.S...or live in the wilderness and never go into any settled area. Not a snark...just the way it is.
True enough, and you forgot the presidents "God Blessing of the America" after every word he spouts. If that isn't promotion I don't know what you'd call it. Here, here, to a good post Goldie. The governments claim to be neutral is only a legal white wash. The people are the government and do promote their beliefs if they hold the majorities. Yes, the Christian one of course!
All and all it only bothers me when I think about how stupid we look internationally. Other than that I'm of course use to it, it is part of our culture to think we are Christian, under the son of God and Blessed by his father more than others. It's so like, Mythical. I could go elsewhere but then I'd have to trade my gun in and that would suck. America is worth my irritation. Thankfully I can just state how I feel about it and go on with my life.
So, to the O.P., nah, doesn't bother me much as a "non beliber"
If people want to dress up and talk to the sky I can just go around them on my way to the store. lol
Exactly. I have lived in liberal and conservative areas and I have relatives in both types of areas and the tenor of public discourse is noticeably different between the two. In liberal areas the topic rarely comes up. In conservative areas it sometimes does, in certain areas, a LOT, particularly in the South. In practice, having lived in the midwest, NE and SW parts of the US, I can't say that religion has unduly intruded on my life or even been a particular irritant.
Some people here do complain of it being terribly vexing, but they either live in rabid Bible Belt environments and/or are personally extra sensitive about it.
I do believe that the arrogance of the religious right, in whose perfect world they would like to impose their beliefs and taboos on society generally, represent a practical threat to democracy and freedom of thought; this is the only "freedom from religion" that matters to me. Even there, I believe that this struggle is all over but the shouting; fundamentalism is losing what hegemony it had in this country. It has been going on for a couple of generations now.
I live in a pretty religious area and the difference is that you are always aware that some Christians are trying to actively put religious ideals into law. So, you have to constantly be aware and vote against it. It just gets a bit exhausting but they have the right to try and change the laws like everyone else. They are far from passive about it though. They make no claims to the contrary as they would love to see my state adopt religious laws and ban anything they think goes against their Lord and Savior. They have no remorse for other religions nor could they give two hoots about an atheist/agnostic as they are just wrong, and need to be forced to accept it. The Lord clearly said, blah blah blah. It's like talking to a brick face. So, you just have to pay attention so you can vote it down.
I don't think we have freedom of or from it. Fat chance becoming president if you aren't a Christian. I think Goldie is spot on this one. Hopefully that's changing in our future.
I live in a pretty religious area and the difference is that you are always aware that some Christians are trying to actively put religious ideals into law. So, you have to constantly be aware and vote against it. It just gets a bit exhausting but they have the right to try and change the laws like everyone else. They are far from passive about it though. They make no claims to the contrary as they would love to see my state adopt religious laws and ban anything they think goes against their Lord and Savior. They have no remorse for other religions nor could they give two hoots about an atheist/agnostic as they are just wrong, and need to be forced to accept it. The Lord clearly said, blah blah blah. It's like talking to a brick face. So, you just have to pay attention so you can vote it down.
I don't think we have freedom of or from it. Fat chance becoming president if you aren't a Christian. I think Goldie is spot on this one. Hopefully that's changing in our future.
I hear you, but I do think that while hyperconservative / hyperreligious sentiment and polarization right now is impressive, it is impressive on a national scale only in the way that a dying person's "death struggle" is impressive. All it is, is different body systems shutting down, it is not a struggle but a bunch of spams. By the time a dying person is in their "death struggle" they are no longer even conscious.
It's the same with fundamentalism, particularly in its political expressions. I felt that the subjective beginning of the end was Pat Robertson's run for president in 1986. During that era the religious right overreached and got in way, way over their head. They did become a potent political force for awhile, but it wasn't sustainable.
Sometime right after the turn of this century they woke up and realized that they had lost the battle for people's minds and imaginations, plus WASPs like myself realized that in less than a generation they would no longer even be a majority in this country anymore, and they are thrashing around in desperate terror now, trying to hang on. It is all over, though, but the shouting.
Obama demonstrated that an African American could get elected yet still be hamstrung by latent racism. Similarly I suspect that an overtly irreligious or agnostic or atheist person could be elected but would suffer the same fate. Give both another generation. America is always proud to be last in the world to come around on any given topic, but we do come around.
I don't think we have freedom of or from it. Fat chance becoming president if you aren't a Christian. I think Goldie is spot on this one. Hopefully that's changing in our future.
There are already several United States Senators and Members of Congress who are non-Christian - including Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, other religions and unaffiliated. So, I'd say we are likely to see at least one non-Christian President within our lifetimes.
Also, a lot of people don't seem to know this, but non-Christian religious holidays are regularly celebrated each year in the White House and the U.S. Capitol.
Still, I agree it's a tough wall to crack at that level. You can be extremely rich and successful in America and be of any religion or no religion. However, becoming President is another ball game since you're supposed to "represent" all the people, I guess.
There are already several United States Senators and Members of Congress who are non-Christian - including Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, other religions and unaffiliated. So, I'd say we are likely to see at least one non-Christian President within our lifetimes.
Also, a lot of people don't seem to know this, but non-Christian religious holidays are regularly celebrated each year in the White House and the U.S. Capitol.
Still, I agree it's a tough wall to crack at that level. You can be extremely rich and successful in America and be of any religion or no religion. However, becoming President is another ball game since you're supposed to "represent" all the people, I guess.
There was tremendous misplaced concern over whether a Catholic could represent all the people. Al Smith tried and failed in 1928, JFK tried and succeeded in 1960. It took a little over a generation for anti-Catholic bigotry to subside sufficiently for a Catholic to actually get elected. Similarly if you consider that Jim Crow "ended" in about 1965, Obama's election in 2008 represents the better part of 2 generations before that was doable (just). It therefore seems probable that we'll see a president who is atheist, agnostic, or indifferent to religion, within the next 50 years at the outside. Given that, it seems that a president who is of a minority (in the US) religious persuasion could come even sooner, although I suppose Muslim would be the hardest nut to crack in that regard.
It's odd that we're even having this conversation given the lip service that we Americans pay to tolerance and pluralism and freedom of thought. But there has always been a gap between theory and practice. The truth is that no nation is as comfortable electing The Other into power than they are electing The Familiar. Our national ambivalence about Obama, with all the proxy racism challenging his legitimacy based on imagined Outsider status, reflects this.
Personally I don't care who wins politically so long as they don't favor their own beliefs at the expense of pluralism, tolerance and egalitarianism.
100 years ago this would have been a non-question. The vast majority of Americans were religious, at least to some degree. The rest were almost all pretty laid back about the subject, even if they didn't actually participate/believe. They simply tolerated the religious... no problem.
That really changed over the last few decades, and today, a sizable minority of Americans are passionately antipathetic towards religion. And of course, there are still some people who are laid back about religion and don't really care either way. Then there are the religious; I would be surprised if even half of Americans are religious today.
As a result of this huge shift, we are seeing that "freedom FROM religion" increasingly trumps "freedom OF religion". As I said, a non-issue 100 or 150 years ago.
100 years ago this would have been a non-question. The vast majority of Americans were religious, at least to some degree. The rest were almost all pretty laid back about the subject, even if they didn't actually participate/believe. They simply tolerated the religious... no problem.
This is not entirely true. There was a period roughly 150 years ago in which agnosticism, atheism, and other variants fo free thought and skepticism were much more influential than we often recognize. It has been dubbed the "Golden Age of Freethought" and was characterized by such luminaries as Robert Ingersoll, the "Great Agnostic", D.M Bennet, and embraced poets like Walt Whitman, and causes like women's sufferage, abolition, reproductive freedom, and freedom from religious oppression. It was a pretty popular movement, with many speakers like Ingersoll drawing large crowds. Folks like Ingersoll, and other humanists and free thinkers were not quiet and they were not gentle in their condemnation of organized religion and its influence in social and political affairs. Honestly, folks like Dawkins might learn a thing or two about how to really stick it to 'em from these phenomenal orators.
It was not until the early 20th century with the rise of the boogeyman of communism that freethought and deviation from religious orthodoxy became equated with "un-American" sentiment. It was this association with foreigners and communism that effectively ended the American freethought movement. What we are seeing nw owes a great deal to this time in history, and shows that the push against religion as a cultural force is not new at all.
True enough, and you forgot the presidents "God Blessing of the America" after every word he spouts. If that isn't promotion I don't know what you'd call it. Here, here, to a good post Goldie. The governments claim to be neutral is only a legal white wash. The people are the government and do promote their beliefs if they hold the majorities. Yes, the Christian one of course!
All and all it only bothers me when I think about how stupid we look internationally. Other than that I'm of course use to it, it is part of our culture to think we are Christian, under the son of God and Blessed by his father more than others. It's so like, Mythical. I could go elsewhere but then I'd have to trade my gun in and that would suck. America is worth my irritation. Thankfully I can just state how I feel about it and go on with my life.
So, to the O.P., nah, doesn't bother me much as a "non beliber"
If people want to dress up and talk to the sky I can just go around them on my way to the store. lol
The politicians are typically a bunch of suck-ups that try to stroke the majority to get the votes...so they can get the nice job with the power and prestige.
Not to mention...Bush claimed "God told him" to start the war in Iraq. How nice!
The last Pres & Vice Pres inauguration was basically a Christian religious ceremony. Though I must say that giant Bible that Biden had kicked the butt of Obamas'...so Obama added another Bible that Abe L. had used to make up for it. HaHa.
This is not entirely true. There was a period roughly 150 years ago in which agnosticism, atheism, and other variants fo free thought and skepticism were much more influential than we often recognize. It has been dubbed the "Golden Age of Freethought" and was characterized by such luminaries as Robert Ingersoll, the "Great Agnostic", D.M Bennet, and embraced poets like Walt Whitman, and causes like women's sufferage, abolition, reproductive freedom, and freedom from religious oppression. It was a pretty popular movement, with many speakers like Ingersoll drawing large crowds. Folks like Ingersoll, and other humanists and free thinkers were not quiet and they were not gentle in their condemnation of organized religion and its influence in social and political affairs. Honestly, folks like Dawkins might learn a thing or two about how to really stick it to 'em from these phenomenal orators.
It was not until the early 20th century with the rise of the boogeyman of communism that freethought and deviation from religious orthodoxy became equated with "un-American" sentiment. It was this association with foreigners and communism that effectively ended the American freethought movement. What we are seeing nw owes a great deal to this time in history, and shows that the push against religion as a cultural force is not new at all.
-NoCapo
Some valid points, but remember: 150/100 years ago, when Unitarian Universalism was becoming big, it was the "anti-tradition". It seemed to do away with the stolid, Christain-based legacy for a New Way. But check it out: it would hardly be considered much different at all by today's standards! If you could transport 19th century Unitarianism into today, it would seem more "same old, same old" than different. (The stained glass window on my town's old UU church has an open Bible smack dab in the center.) In other words, there really wasn't any big movement away from traditional religious belief 100 or 150 years ago; even what presented itself as the "alternative" wasn't all that different. (The UU has mirrored society's shifts by becoming completely separated from traditional Christianity over the last 50 years).
Today, the "alternative" is TRULY different: stout, antipathetic atheism; and it's sizable (and growing).
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America is worth my irritation. Thankfully I can just state how I feel about it and go on with my life. 
