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Okay, here's what really perplexes me when I'm debating with some Christians (not you, the post just reminded me of this!)... if anyone uses an Old Testament scripture to debate against them, they say "we're Christian, and only have to follow the NT." But then they'll use OT references to support their views! Is it just me, or is that weird? I don't mean any disrespect, but I find this kind of contradictory and confusing.
Yes, it is confusing... unless you are a member of the Church of Christ. We believe the New Testament blotted out the Old Testament and we no longer practice what they did... that's why we don't have musical instruments in the church and all that other stuff. We believe in the Old Testament and learn about it because it contains how stuff came about... but it's just kind of like.... history to us. We believe Adam and Eve happened... and so we also believe that since Adam was formed first, then Eve was to be submissive to him, as stated in 1 Timothy 2:13.
The only authority man has over woman is his authority during marriage. Now if some of you think you can exert that authority over any woman by telling them to shut up, I don't think I need to tell you what will probably happen.
Example: In the verse that states that women should be silent in the church. Does it imply that this be any woman, or does it say for them to ask their husbands when they get home on such matters? Husband means they are married. Married means the husband has authority over that woman. It does not mean he has authority over a woman preaching behind the pulpit.
Also, who has authority over a woman who is not married? The Father. Not you, not me.
So when the bible say that a woman should not usurp the authority of man over her. You have to look at:
1) If she is married, then it would apply to her husband only. If a man told my wife (if I were married) to shut up, I think he would walk away in some type of pain.
2) If she is not married, then it applies to the Father. And the Father is her protector as well.
If God gave any other authority of man over any woman other than marriage, or her Father. I'd like to see some verses please that specify this.
Adam was created before Eve because Adam was considered head of house hold (authority in marriage).
I'll just refer to you to 1 Timothy 2:13. I think it's just that so many women are tired of being seen as the "weaker" sex and go against the Bible to get what they want. If the Bible tells them to shut up and not take over a man's position, then a woman needs to shut up... simple as that.
Thank you for the support, gizmo...it's hard to believe we can still be debating gender equality in 2007! There are some Christian denominations that are accepting of anyone who is called to the ministry...Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Moravian, Church of God, Mennonite, some Baptist denominations, and I'm sure there are more. The Unitarian Universalists are the first to have a majority of female ministers.
Others are still clinging to a sexist history, among them are...Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Southern Baptist, Mormon, and many fundamentalist sects.
women are very good administrators.
when guys step back and remain silent too much, however it causes problems. you only want guys to back up some not fold up entirely.
for a long time we have been encouraging more assertive (aggresive spelled nice) behavior in girls and suppressing agressive behavior in boys.
we are reaping the fruit of this in many ways. not all of it is bad some of it is bad. it shows up in the church too ,which is only a micromodel of our society wearing its best clothes.
stephen s
san diego ca
So, basically, if 95% of majority of women were prostitutes... that'd be ok because we're conforming to society instead of going by biblical principles??
I'll just refer to you to 1 Timothy 2:13. I think it's just that so many women are tired of being seen as the "weaker" sex and go against the Bible to get what they want. If the Bible tells them to shut up and not take over a man's position, then a woman needs to shut up... simple as that.
Oh yeah.. and I wonder why Christianity sometimes gets a bad name..
I guess I'm just a Liberal theologian.. Believe what you like though..
Liberal theologians believe that 1 and 2 Timothy were written by unknown authors in the second century CE, many decades after Paul died. Some further speculate that one of the purposes of the forgeries was to "subvert Paul's radicalism," and to reinstall "conventional patriarchal attitudes towards women."
Oh yeah.. and I wonder why Christianity sometimes gets a bad name..
Last edited by bigthirsty; 10-01-2007 at 11:47 AM..
Reason: Oh Yeah
1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV) This is a curious passage. It appears to prohibit all talking by women during services. But it contradicts verse 11:5, in which St. Paul states that women can actively pray and prophesy during services.
Many theologians have concluded that verses 14:33b to 36 are a later addition, added by an unknown counterfeiter with little talent at forgery. Bible scholar, Hans Conzelmann, comments on these three and a half verses: "Moreover, there are peculiarities of linguistic usage, and of thought. [within them]." 6 If they are removed, then Verse 33a merges well with Verse 37 in a seamless transition. Since they were a later forgery, they do not fulfill the basic requirement to be considered inerrant: they were not in the original manuscript written by Paul.
Yes, I'm a Reform (there's no -ed at the end ) Jew, and we have many female Rabbis... in fact, one of the Temples I attend has a female Rabbi who's also a lesbian. Reform Judaism is the most modern/liberal sect, and we believe in adjusting to changes within society. You can read about us here: Reform Judaism
The next most "modern" sect is Conservatism, which is kind of divided on this issue... the Orthodox, Chasidim & Lubavitchers are very traditional, and don't believe in women being equal - we're even forced to sit separately, usually in an enclosed room in the back. And this is one GOOD reason I practice Reform Judaism instead!
My apologies, Gizmo, about calling it Reformed. I didn't catch that in your previous posts. My mistake. Thank you for the link. I started reading it this morning, and though it will take me a little while to finish it, thus far it has been very interesting. Since Reform Judaism is more modern/liberal, do the more traditional sects even acknowledge it?
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Since Reform Judaism is more modern/liberal, do the more traditional sects even acknowledge it?
