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Personally, I don't see anything "primitive" or "ignorant" in God's choice to condemn all mankind because of the sin of one man Adam.
The reason this could be considered "just" is because Paul shows us in Romans 5, that Jesus Christ "undid" the curse! As by one man, sin passed to all men... so by one man, righteousness passed to all men.
If God cursed all mankind, all because of the disobedience of ONE, that would indeed seem ridiculous. No judge would condemn an entire country just because ONE man stole a piece of candy.
BUT, we're not talking about ordinary punishments, neither are we talking about an ordinary judge.
It seems quite clear (or at least it seemed quite clear to Paul in Romans 5) that God's act of condemning all mankind was with the specific intent of removing the condemnation again through ONE man, Jesus Christ.
That is also why a judge, who is the father, can pay the debt that the son owed. The son may not know it or believe it, but the father loves him very very much, and if the father condemned him, he has now removed the condemnation for ever. "There is now NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus." Who is in Christ Jesus? Eventually, all mankind will be.
No . . . I've denied the absurd and ignorant interpretations currently used. You seem unable to extricate yourself from the ignorant interpretations and interpret the events using the "mind of Christ" which mandates a loving non-vengeful, non-smiting God.You have yet to explain WHY a loving God would REQUIRE such a gruesome death and blood sacrifice to forgive His children?
I prefer to see the promise and validation of Christ in the OT and the redemption of that promise in the NT producing the New Covenant. You want to retain the ancient ignorant beliefs about God and sacrifices from the OT and reject the unambiguous example and teaching we were given by the "mind of Christ."[u] Again you confuse your preferred interpretation of the OT under the veil of ignorance of our ancestors with the valid interpretation using the "mind of Christ." What you call the fall of man was our first lesson in righteousness (the Bible is full of such lessons which is why it is USEFUL for instruction). We were spiritual infants in Eden not responsible for knowing Good and Evil. We had to learn that distinction. Once we knew the difference . . . we were then capable of choosing evil over good . . . which we have done in abundance in our species spiritual immaturity through the centuries. But Moses our schoolmaster started us on the path to properly choosing with the training wheels of fear of God and punishment. When Jesus fulfilled the OT prophesies and we could validate Him through the ages in it . . . He removed the fear of God (only the beginning of wisdom) by showing us the love of God by His unambiguous example and teaching. We were then capable of choosing Good over Evil through "love of God and each other" as Jesus commanded.
You are confused because you FAIL to properly divide the scriptures into their separate roles. The OT tells us of the promise of Christ and provides what is necessary to validate Him when He arrives. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies (and continues to do so). Scripture also contains many lessons in righteousness so it is USEFUL ((profitable) for instruction and to give us hope. But it is under the veil of ignorance about the true nature of our God . . . which is why we need the "mind of Christ" to understand God and read the scriptures using that understanding given in the NT . . . not the ancient ignorance under the veil.
The messiah didn't deny the origin of man. He said he was the son of David which was a descendant from Adam. He didn't deny this. In fact, this is why he laid his life down - to lift the curse of sin. "Behold the lamb that takes away the sins of the world." John 1:29 To redeem us and our fallen state to our creator. The wages of sin is death. A righteous judge pronounces punishment for transgression, but he also provides means of redemption from that transgression. Sin is transgression to a holy creator. Payment was required for the transgression. Tetelastai >> "paid in full" shouted out by the messiah before giving up the ghost. Elohim has done it all. All we have to do is accept it. Everything works toward good and the glory of Elohim.
Matthew 5:17-18 (King James Version)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. <<< Spoken by the messiah himself!
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
We are in the new covenant. It fulfills the law, not destroy. Spoken by Yahushua himself. Calling it ignorance shows your displays ignorance on your part.
I'll also say that no one killed him. He laid his life down under his own power. It was a grand accomplishment not a tragedy. It is only the reason we have hope after this life ends.
John 10:18 (King James Version)
18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Last edited by Mikelee81; 05-11-2011 at 09:07 AM..
Genesis chapter five describes the origin and plan of God through meaning of the names in order of their genealogy. There's evidence of a divine message throughout this entire canon - Old and New Testament. Anyone interested look up "Authentication codes."
Adam - Man (is)
Seth - Appointed
Enosh - Mortal
Cainan - Sorrow;
Mahalalel - The Blessed God
Jared - Shall Come Down
Enoch - Teaching
Methuselah - His Death Shall Bring
Lamech - The Despairing
Noah - Comfort
All that don't follow Elohim's provision for their sin through his only begotten son the messiah will have rejected the creator. They will have rejected the provision for their sin thus according to scripture will be judged to Gehenna for eternity. This is the message to us.
All that don't follow Elohim's provision for their sin through his only begotten son the messiah will have rejected the creator. They will have rejected the provision for their sin thus according to scripture will be judged to Gehenna for eternity. This is the message to us.
I disagree. Why do you think God would make you and I and everone else sinners?
It has nothing to do with our "choices." Man had no choice at all, because of what Adam did! Adam sinned, and all went to prison. It's simple!
In which I said,
"The only "good news" they offer is a way to be saved from a horrible fate they made up.
The real good news is we don't need a savior because there is no hell to be saved from.
The whole foundation of Christianity is built on the premise that there is this horrible fate awaiting us, and the only way to avoid it is by buying into their message."
In which I said,
"The only "good news" they offer is a way to be saved from a horrible fate they made up.
The real good news is we don't need a savior because there is no hell to be saved from.
The whole foundation of Christianity is built on the premise that there is this horrible fate awaiting us, and the only way to avoid it is by buying into their message."
I can completely understand your conclusion, Hueffenhardt. In fact, if we stop at Adam, that's the onlyrational way to see things.
Personally, I think there is more to it than that. I think that God did in fact put man into a bad/negative condition, but only to "reverse the curse" through Jesus Christ.
Therefore, the only rational conclusion to a situation in which a Loving God puts all His creatures into "prison," is that He then takes them all out again. All sinners now, all saints later.
But putting all men into prison, and then leaving it up to them to "find the way out again," does not seem "just" at all.
If God wanted us to make a choice, it would have to be a choice made without the influence of Adam. But that is not how the story goes.
I disagree. Why do you think God would make you and I and everone else sinners?
It has nothing to do with our "choices." Man had no choice at all, because of what Adam did! Adam sinned, and all went to prison. It's simple!
Is a prisoner free?? NO.
Blessings,
brian
Brian Sheol/Hades and Gehenna are scriptural. Free will to choose also is as well.
"Why do you think God would make you and I and everone else sinners?"
I think it's clear this is a test to test our loyalty. We were created after the fall of Lucifer according to scriptures. Lucifer also had free will.
All that put their faith in the messiah have the curse lifted. The messiah was the creator as a man. Rejecting the messiah is rejecting the creator.
Gehenna is scriptural, and we should live by this. Who are we to put Elohim in a box though. You have the "age of accountability" is probably when we know the truth and keep it in unrighteousness. Scripture says those that do so will be punished more harshly. Only the creator knows our hearts. This is why we are told we are not to condemn, but proclaim the gospel which is salvation from condemnation.
All works for good and for Elohim. Elohim is truth so to reject the message of Gehenna looks to be fatal.
How do you digest this passage?
Matthew 7:13-14 (King James Version)
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It seems to me, if you love people you will tell them this truth.
In which I said,
"The only "good news" they offer is a way to be saved from a horrible fate they made up.
The real good news is we don't need a savior because there is no hell to be saved from.
The whole foundation of Christianity is built on the premise that there is this horrible fate awaiting us, and the only way to avoid it is by buying into their message."
I used to think like this. Then the truth was revealed to me by looking for truth. Why are we here? <<< no one seems to know the answer. It has been reduced to a relative opinion not absolute truth - a devise for debate when we're bored not searching for truth. Look for the answers and you will find it.
The only barrier of truth is presuming we already have it. The biggest lie is that believers in the messiah have been indoctrinated into it. My biggest regret is not searching for truth earlier.
I used to think like this. Then the truth was revealed to me by looking for truth. Why are we here? <<< no one seems to know the answer. It has been reduced to a relative opinion not absolute truth - a devise for debate when we're bored not searching for truth. Look for the answers and you will find it.
The only barrier of truth is presuming we already have it. The biggest lie is that believers in the messiah have been indoctrinated into it. My biggest regret is not searching for truth earlier.
Been there; done that. I was a very devout, and serious believer for the first 30 years of my life. I am absolutely convinced now that Christianity is not true. I have delved too deeply into the real history of Christianity and I have become too familiar with the logical problems within Christianity. I found this out by looking for truth, and I found the truth that Christianity is not true.
Been there; done that. I was a very devout, and serious believer for the first 30 years of my life. I am absolutely convinced now that Christianity is not true. I have delved too deeply into the real history of Christianity and I have become too familiar with the logical problems within Christianity. I found this out by looking for truth, and I found the truth that Christianity is not true.
Well then you will be easily deceived into accepting the the unified religion in the upcoming New World Order rejecting the messiah. You can narrow this down to either a conspiracy against the creator or biblical prophecy.
Some have made the claim the Bible was written by this illuminati as a means to control the public. I can't help but laugh at that one as a very small majority of proclaimed "Christians" even accept it as such. Just read some comments in the Christianity section. If they went through all this trouble for this reason, they might have duped a whole 5 or so percent of the entire world population. Even the "churches" have reduced eschatology or allegorized it altogether. They'll be leading their people into this - just as is predicted in scripture.
The fact is Scripture can be proven as the authority as a divine message from the creator. One has to search through the layers of lies to get there though.
I think as these days unfold there will be no question to what is happening. Sadly many people will be lost because they rejected this important information. We're all entitled to our opinion, but opinion is not truth.
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