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If there is a Hell, and a God, and He gave man "Free Will," then it would be man's fault if he ended up there.
Good start, but don't stop thinking there. Let's take it a step further. Why would someone use their free will to end up in hell? No matter how you answer that question, the fault will always be traced back to god if you believe god created us.
Let's say you say:
1) That man doesn't have enough faith. Well, if god created man, who gave man faith or his lack of faith? God. So, it is God's fault that he did not give man enough faith. If he had given the man enough faith, he would have used his free will to go to heaven, if the reason why he used his free will to end up in hell was truly because he did not have enough faith.
2) It was because he did not know about god and hell. Well, is it fair to say that the man used his free will to choose hell if he did not even know about his choices? It is God's fault for not making sure he knew about god and hell so that he could use his free will to choose whether to follow god or not.
3) If it was because the man was stubborn. Well, if God created man, he gave him his stubbornness, so it is God's fault for not making him less stubborn. If you claim the man chose to be stubborn, then we repeat the cycle. Why would he choose to be stubborn? No matter how you answer that question, it is going to lead to it being god's fault.
The fact is, if we were created by God, we were created differently. If we have free will, we use our free will differently because of who we are. God made us the way we are, so it is his fault.
Imagine each person started off with the exact same life circumstances. Do you think we'd all make the same choices? No? OK, what explains why we make different choices from each other. It would have to go back to the different attributes we have. Well, god gave us those different attributes, so he made us to succeed or fail based on how much stubbornness, faith, etc that he created us with.
Whatever is different about a person, that they would choose evil, was put there by god if he created them. If they have a heart that would stray, god gave them that heart. If at any time you get tempted to stop short and blame the man, just remember that God created the man and gave him the inclination to use the free will in the way he uses it. Some people are just religiously minded and others aren't, and although by the time they are an adult they may have made several decisions to continue on that path, there is a reason why he started on that path as a kid and that is due to how he was made. So, god gave some of us what we need to set us on the path to seek him out, and some of us don't seek that path because whatever it is that would have led us to us our free will to choose that path we were deficient in, because god created us without enough of it.
Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 04-25-2011 at 09:30 PM..
Good start, but don't stop thinking there. Let's take it a step further. Why would someone use their free will to end up in hell? No matter how you answer that question, the fault will always be traced back to god if you believe god created us.
I'm not really taking the question seriously as I thought my reply might have shown.
I can compare it to prison.
If there is a prison, and someone ended up there, is it the fault of the person who ended up there, the person who wrote the law which was violated, the person who sentenced him there, or the person who constructed the prison?
Hypothetical questions breed conjecture.
There were a lot of assumptions in your reasoning, which would involve presupposition of how God will act in any, or every, given circumstance. I just don't see the point in breaking it all down or imposing my personal reasoning on answering for someone I can't.
I'm not really taking the question seriously as I thought my reply might have shown.
I can compare it to prison.
If there is a prison, and someone ended up there, is it the fault of the person who ended up there, the person who sentenced him there, or the person who constructed the prison?
Hypothetical questions breed conjecture.
There were a lot of assumptions in your reasoning, which would involve presupposition of how God will act in any or every given circumstance. I just don't see the point in breaking it all down.
It is the fault of the person who ended up there. But, the analogy breaks down because God supposedly made the man that ended up there. What is the difference between a man who commits crimes and a man who does not. Let's say that you say, the man who doesn't commit crime doesn't want to commit crime. Where do those wants come from? It comes from the person, right? And who created the person with their wants? God. If God didn't want him to choose crime, he should have created him the way he did those men who don't want to commit crime.
Last edited by Hueffenhardt; 04-25-2011 at 09:46 PM..
It is the fault of the person who ended up there. But, the analogy breaks down because God supposedly made the man that ended up there. What is the difference because the man who commits crimes and the man who does not. Let's say that you say, the man who doesn't commit crime doesn't want to commit crime. Where do those wants come from? It comes from the person, right? And who created the person with their wants? God. If God didn't want him to choose crime, he should have created him the way he did those men who don't want to commit crime.
Well then, everything is God's fault.
Only the believers can blame him though.
I appreciate your postings on a number of topics HH, I just think the suppositions here, go nowhere fast.
Thank you for your replies. Thanks to all others too.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by timemachine
I'm going to pretend i'm a christian to answer this.
It is absolutely ok to pretend i am a christian in order to understand christian way of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr5150
I find it amusing that atheists are speculating about the behavior of an entity they believe does not exist.
We might feel it amusing, but in the same time that is the most objective way.
I see that many christians try to sit on two chairs. They try to believe in god's all mighty, and in next sentence they talk about the freedom of choice. They can refuse to answer my question, because they are not ready to go through logically their own thinking.
It is the fault of the person who ended up there. But, the analogy breaks down because God supposedly made the man that ended up there. What is the difference between a man who commits crimes and a man who does not. Let's say that you say, the man who doesn't commit crime doesn't want to commit crime. Where do those wants come from? It comes from the person, right? And who created the person with their wants? God. If God didn't want him to choose crime, he should have created him the way he did those men who don't want to commit crime.
Technically speaking, you are made by your parents. But if you choose to break the laws, your parents are innocent but only you will be held responsible.
God's intention is to made His sheep, He's not responsible for anything else to be made by other freewills. God's intention is to make the wheat, weeds are not made by Him. But it's by someone else's freewill that weeds did appear in the same field the wheat grow. And He's Ultimate Plan is to make a heaven free of weeds and their planters.
God's responsibility is thus to do the best for His sheep and His sheep only.
If you are a student in a class with a teacher that helps you with everything he can .. by the end of the semester you failed the exam ..
is it his fault or yours ?
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