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Old 09-30-2010, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,237,865 times
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Christianity continually makes the claim that their religion is the only truth and is superior to all others because of the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus is portrayed by Christians as the only sinless man whose perfect behavior made him so holy that he alone, was qualified to become the human sacrifice which the bible God required to save man.

The problem that the OT never makes any mention of God changing his rules for salvation (which were to love him and obey all his laws), by deciding to use a human sacrifice of a godman to atone for the sins of mankind can be set aside for now, but the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless needs to be carefully examined.

The Bible states that Jesus was holy and sinless in the following verses:

Heb 4:14-15
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 7:26
For such an high priest(Jesus) became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

1 Peter 2:21-22
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he(Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Although these claims were made and continue to be made today, the actions of Jesus don't match up with the claims of his holy sinless nature. There are several problems with the claims that Jesus was completely sinless.

Given that Jesus was allegedly a Jew, he displayed an appalling lack of respect for God's laws when he declared that all foods are clean in Mark 7:15-19(vs. Lev 11), when he disregarded God's law regarding any type of work being performed on the Sabbath in Mark 2:23-27 (vs. Exo 31:15), and when he disregarded God's law on adultery in John 8:3-11 (vs. Deut 22:22).

Jesus also blatantly lied when he was questioned by the high priest after he was arrested. Jesus packed three mighty big whoppers into one single verse:

John 18:19-20
The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever(always) taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.

The three lies are:
1. Jesus stated he always taught in the synagogues or at the temple.
2. Jesus stated he spoke openly to the world.
3. Jesus stated he said nothing in secret.


Lie #1 While Jesus did much of his teaching at the synagogue or temple, those were not the only places he taught. There are examples of him teaching outside these places:

Matt 5:1-3
And seeing the multitudes, he(Jesus) went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 13:1-3
The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;...etc

As we can clearly see, Jesus did not always teach at the synagogue or temple.

Lie #2 Jesus stated he spoke openly to the world. Openly would mean with honestly and with clarity.

o·pen·ly, adverb
frankly: without making any attempt at concealment

Jesus usually taught using parables. Parables are stories which relay a message using words as the vehicle. Even the disciples couldn't understand what Jesus was attempting to say and they often had to ask him what his words meant.

Mark 4:10-13
And when he(Jesus) was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Jesus only shared the meaning of his parables to his close associates. He did this in order to hide the truth and only revealed it to his "special" followers. It isn't simply a matter of the common people not understanding what Jesus was saying. It was a deliberate attempt by Jesus to obfuscate the meaning. This is not teaching in openness. It is teaching with deceptive intentions.

The author of Mark attempted to compare what Jesus was actually doing with a quote from Isa 6:9-10 where he is portrayed as speaking in parables just like Isaiah did. The author of Matthew also uses the same procedure in more detail as he twists Isa 6:9-10 to a greater degree.

Matt 13:10-15
And the disciples came, and said unto him(Jesus), Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias(Isaiah), which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The author of Matthew has Jesus quoting Isa 6:9-10 to explain why he teaches using deception.

Take a look at the entire passage of Isa 6:8-12 and see what it actually says and means vs. how it was used in relation to Jesus. Since the authors of Matthew and Mark left off Isa 6:11-12 and only lifted a small portion of the text out of Isaiah 6, let's see the reason why they didn't attempt to quote more than just a few lines from Isaiah.

Isa 6:8-12
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

Isa 6:8-12 is about Isaiah's instructions from God about 700 years before Jesus ever arrived on earth. God instructed Isaiah to go and deceive the people because of their sins. The deceptive teachings God tells Isaiah to give are not selective. They apply to all the people of that time.

Unlike the teachings Isaiah was to give, the deceptive teachings of Jesus were selective and only his close associates were allowed to know the "secret" true meanings.

There is nothing in the Isaiah 6 text which states that some people would be given accurate information while others were deliberately given deceptive teachings to make their ears dull and their hearts hard.

Isaiah also asks for how long he should confuse the people and God tells him in Isa 6:11-12 that he should confuse the people until the cities lie ruined and everyone is sent far away and the land forsaken.

So, now we can clearly see why the author of Matthew and Mark didn't use Isa 6:11-12 and omitted it from their story as it would show that the Isa 6:9-10 passage has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus.

If Jesus was really the one who received the commission God gave to Isaiah in Isa 6:8-12 then that commission contradicts John 3:17 which declares that Jesus came to save the world. You don't save the world by lying and deliberately trying to confuse it.

John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The commission God gave to Isaiah was to make the heart of this people fat, make their ears heavy, and close their eyes. Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed. We can clearly see that the instructions were to make the people's hearts hard and to close their eyes.

The authors of the gospels as well as the author of Matthew in particular, were very eager to portray Jesus as fulfilling verses from the Old Testament. They would rip Old Testament verses like Isa 6:9-10 out of context and then claim Jesus fulfilled them in some way by his actions or words. This is called manufacturing a prophecy fulfillment. These are the types of deceptive tactics used by the writers of the New Testament.
The author of Matthew used the same tactic with his distortion of Isa 7:14 as he used it in Matt 1:22-23. Christians have built their faith around these deliberate deceptions and then have the nerve to proclaim to the world that the New Testament is the "word of God". If anything, the author of Matthew fulfilled Isa 6:10 because he used deceptive writings to make the peoples hearts hard towards God in favor of a new savior called Jesus. How ironic is that?

The bottom line is that Jesus did not teach openly. Jesus stated that he was following and fulfilled God's instructions in Isa 6:9-10 which were to deceive the people.

The author of John(John 18:20) is the only gospel which has Jesus making the three claims about where and how he spoke to the people. The Gospel of John also doesn't have Jesus saying anything about teaching in parables to fulfill Isa 6:9-10. This is an excellent example of the author of John being tripped up by the author of Matthew in particular.

Lie #3 Jesus stated that he said nothing in secret.

Here again, Jesus, is exposed as lying to the high priest. Jesus said that only his close followers were allowed to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven that others were not allowed to know. It follows that the disciples must have been taught some things privately and these things were not revealed to the public by Jesus otherwise Jesus should have taught the people he preached the same things he disclosed to his disciples.

Mark 4:10-12
And when he(Jesus) was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Here we can clearly see that Mark 4:10-12 says "when he(Jesus) was alone;" When the crowds were gone Jesus shared information with his disciples in private and in secret. Those on the outside are spoken to in parables so that they will not perceive the true meaning of the message. In other words...they are lied to.

Jesus also teaches secretly in Luke 10:23-24.

Luke 10:23-24
And he(Jesus) turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Here again we can clearly see the Jesus spoke privately and secretly to his disciples and told them that they alone were given inside information that wasn't available others.

And yet another example of teaching in secret is provided in Matt 13:34-42.

Matt 13:34-42
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
[Here it's once again stated that Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables and not in plain language.]

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
[Here Jesus is portrayed as having fulfilled Psa 78:2. The problem is that the author of Matthew has ripped a piece of Psa 78 out of context and used it to apply to Jesus.]

Psa 78:1-7
Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
(Psa 78:2 says nothing about uttering things hidden since the creation of the world but about dark sayings from the past.)

We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
(Psa 78:2 couldn't be about Jesus because Jesus already declared that he spoke in parables to deceive people (per Isa 6:9-10), not to inform them of any truths. Jesus hides the truth by using parables and the subject in Psalms 78 uses a parable to reveal the truth.

Here we have the author of Matthew trying to claim that Jesus "fulfilled" Psa 78:2 by speaking in parables. However, the author of Matthew already claimed that Jesus also "fulfilled" Isa 6:9-10.

In Isaiah 6 the words were used to deceive and in Psalms 78 the words are used to inform. In his eagerness to manufacture a prophecy fulfillment; the author of Matthew has written Jesus into both the Book of Isaiah and the Book of Psalms, the result being that Jesus teaches to deceive and to reveal the truth at the same time. Which clearly shows what happens when one attempts to concoct the text.

The author of Matthew doesn't quote Psa 78:2 in context so this major deception cannot be exposed unless one takes the time to check out what Psa 78 actually says.


Psa 78:5-7
For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
That the generation to come might know them, even the children which should be born; who should arise and declare them to their children:
That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:

If read in context, Psa 78:2 refers to God's deeds and laws being passed on and obeyed by the use of a parable. This is to help insure that all generations will obey God and his commands. This is in stark contrast to what Christianity has done to God's laws. Paul declared the laws a curse which were cancelled and eliminated by Jesus (Rom 10:4, Col 2:14, Gal 3:13). There isn't any reason to believe that Jesus "fulfilled" anything related to Psa 78:2 or Isa 6:9-10. The author of Matthew simply wrote Jesus into the Old Testament where it was deemed fit.

Matthew 13:36-42
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
[Jesus left the crowd and went into the house. Once again he is questioned by his disciples.]

He(Jesus) answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
[Jesus is now explaining the real meaning of the parable in secret in his disciples.]

The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
[Jesus never reveals this information to anyone but his disciples. He taught them this message in secret and never told the public this would happen.]

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Considering the consequences which Jesus will unleash on the world, for him to claim he said nothing in secret is both absurd and dishonest. It's also worthy of note that the author of John never tells this story of Jesus sending out angels to exterminate people nor does it tell of Jesus speaking secretly to his disciples about it.

If the Gospels are to be taken as fact then all three of the statements of Jesus in John 18:20 are deceptions and lies. He did not always teach at the temple or synagogue, did not speak openly but deceptively, and he also taught things in secret. Contrary Christianity's claims, Jesus falls far short of being perfect or sin free.

Prov 12:22
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.


Prov 17:7
Excellent speech becometh not a fool: much less do lying lips a prince.


Psa 55:23
But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.

Psa 120:2
Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue.

The bible clearly shows us that God doesn't approve of men who lie and since this has clearly been proven the case with Jesus then Christians need to be saved from him, not by him.

Clearly from the above we can all ascertain that the claim Christianity makes of Jesus being the only perfect sinless man...is not all it's cracked up to be...unless lying is not considered a sin anymore.

Any and all comments are welcome.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Ohio
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
and when he disregarded God's law on adultery in John 8:3-11 (vs. Deut 22:22).
Jesus never said that.

That is the Pericope of the Adulteress and it doesn't exist in any know texts prior to the 1100's. It's undisputed that the story was made up and inserted later. I have always argued it was done to justify the actions of the popes, who commonly committed adultery, rape, incest. Some popes had both male and female mistresses and some were openly homosexual. The wife of one pope killed him while he was having sex with another woman.

Clearly, it would be in the best interest of the Imperial Roman Catholic Church if Jesus justified those acts.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Jesus never said that.

That is the Pericope of the Adulteress and it doesn't exist in any know texts prior to the 1100's. It's undisputed that the story was made up and inserted later. I have always argued it was done to justify the actions of the popes, who commonly committed adultery, rape, incest. Some popes had both male and female mistresses and some were openly homosexual. The wife of one pope killed him while he was having sex with another woman.

Clearly, it would be in the best interest of the Imperial Roman Catholic Church if Jesus justified those acts.
Honestly...I have found the entirety of NT to be nothing but BS and goes so far afield from OT that I can't understand how anyone can compare the two and say they harmonize. I honestly think there is very little included in the NT, if anything at all, that was actually said by a man named Jesus. The entire NT is basically a brand new religion that was instituted by none other than Paul himself...although I think he intended Jesus to be more in line with the pagan gods of the time, a cosmological Christ, he sure didn't turn out that way once the Roman Church got a hold of him.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:18 AM
 
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What I have noticed in the bible is that the Christian claims (made by the four most common biblical authors) don't match what Jesus often said. It is debatable whether or not Jesus himself was the liar. Clearly though, his followers made him out to be "greater" and more "God-like" than he really was. The fact that Jesus died a painful death on a cross is proof that he was not a perfect deity.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Jesus (if he really existed) wanted people to be "Christ-like"; not "liked by Christ". There is a difference. Christianity was never meant to be as far as Jesus was concerned. This man never wanted to be worshiped or made into a deity. He simply wanted mankind to follow his spiritual example (something most people have failed to do).
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
What I have noticed in the bible is that the Christian claims (made by the four most common biblical authors) don't match what Jesus often said. It is debatable whether or not Jesus himself was the liar. Clearly though, his followers made him out to be "greater" and more "God-like" than he really was. The fact that Jesus died a painful death on a cross is proof that he was not a perfect deity.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Jesus (if he really existed) wanted people to be "Christ-like"; not "liked by Christ". There is a difference. Christianity was never meant to be as far as Jesus was concerned. This man never wanted to be worshiped or made into a deity. He simply wanted mankind to follow his spiritual example (something most people have failed to do).
I agree completely....I believe there are traces (very minute traces) of what the man called Jesus actually espoused...but they have just about been obliterated by the authors themselves and probably further erased by the Roman Church. Like I said previously, Paul made a brand new religion and everyone fell for it hook, line and sinker.

The asinity of making him into diety (God himself) shows through particularly in Revelation:

Rev 3:2 Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.

Rev 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

This is just one chapter in the book and there are many more to be found throughout the NT. If Jesus has his own God....which he clearly states he does....why is anyone calling him God????

Last edited by ChristyGrl; 09-30-2010 at 11:49 AM..
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,323 posts, read 6,046,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
What I have noticed in the bible is that the Christian claims (made by the four most common biblical authors) don't match what Jesus often said. It is debatable whether or not Jesus himself was the liar. Clearly though, his followers made him out to be "greater" and more "God-like" than he really was. The fact that Jesus died a painful death on a cross is proof that he was not a perfect deity.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Jesus (if he really existed) wanted people to be "Christ-like"; not "liked by Christ". There is a difference. Christianity was never meant to be as far as Jesus was concerned. This man never wanted to be worshiped or made into a deity. He simply wanted mankind to follow his spiritual example (something most people have failed to do).
Men rewrote the bible to raise Jesus up so that they could explain the so called miracles. Jesus did perfom some but not all of them. The wine in to water thing is one. Jesus told our mediums that He went to a nearby shop and bought the wine. The water to wine was inserted later to make Jesus more powerful. There are quite a lot of fairy tales but there is just a tad of truth. We just have to earn to discern what is true and what is not. Most people just take anothers word for things without doing their own research. Then they get mad at others for telling them they are wrong.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
This is just one chapter in the book and there are many more to be found throughout the NT. If Jesus has his own God....which he clearly states he does....why is anyone calling him God????
But then they would have to face realisty and I don't think their ready yet. They like the hand that feeds and don't know how to feed thmeselves.

Yup, Jesus never said He was or is God. All made up by ignorant writers.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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But then they would have to face realisty and I don't think their ready yet. They like the hand that feeds and don't know how to feed thmeselves.

Yup, Jesus never said He was or is God. All made up by ignorant writers.
Not only did he never say it....he said just the opposite. What befuddles me is that Christians completely IGNORE these things....it's right there in black and white (or perhaps red in some bibles)...and yet they completely IGNORE it and continue to believe a LIE.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Houston
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Jesus can lie because he's the Son of God. God doesn't have to be fair. Like any parent it's do as he says, not as he does. Duh. He defined what sin was, so basically he can't have sin, all he can do is tell you why you're such a disaster. And if you don't accept him as the son of God your unconditionally loving God will burn you for an eternity for failing to fully grasp some ridiculously cryptic to begin with, mistranslation riddled instruction book dating back a minimum of 1900 years, and up to 2500 years in some places.

If that doesn't sound fair to you, then I hope you enjoy your seat in hell, because that's where you're going. I of course will be in heaven praising Jesus from my mansion in New Jerusalem because that doesn't sound like eternal torment at all......

Disclaimer: There is too much irony contained herein for anyone to even attempt to take this post seriously, so do not try.
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Old 09-30-2010, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
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Originally Posted by Spank316 View Post
Jesus can lie because he's the Son of God. God doesn't have to be fair. Like any parent it's do as he says, not as he does. Duh. He defined what sin was, so basically he can't have sin, all he can do is tell you why you're such a disaster. And if you don't accept him as the son of God your unconditionally loving God will burn you for an eternity for failing to fully grasp some ridiculously cryptic to begin with, mistranslation riddled instruction book dating back a minimum of 1900 years, and up to 2500 years in some places.

If that doesn't sound fair to you, then I hope you enjoy your seat in hell, because that's where you're going. I of course will be in heaven praising Jesus from my mansion in New Jerusalem because that doesn't sound like eternal torment at all......

Disclaimer: There is too much irony contained herein for anyone to even attempt to take this post seriously, so do not try.
Alrighty then....I'll wave to ya as my hiney is roasting in the flames.
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