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Ourself- You make completely valid points. This is true that we should not have to take responsibility for Adam's actions. But the story is more a sybmol of the "evil" within us as it's called.
God never told Adam what the fruit would do. He never said "The fruit of this tree will not make you as powerful as me". He only asked them not to eat it. So when the devil slithers along and tells Adam this fruit will make you as powerful as God why wouldn't he accept it? I would say any one human on this planet would have accepted that offer without if there was no proof against it. I definitely would have. What would be compelling you not to? Nothing. What could God do about it if you were as powerful as him? It was a test of Adam's loyalty and gratefulness to God for giving him life and this garden of Eden.
With that decision coming to represent the "evil" in Adam I would say it exists in all of us, therefor we would need to be saved.
neuling - On the subject of what I believe - Like I said previously, my view of it all changes daily. I'm constantly mulling over any and all views I can get my hands on. Why would I simply accept your view without questioning it in every possible way first? Nothing has ever been completely proven or disproved to me therefore I cannot come to a concrete decision yet. After all I would say the subject is not one to be taken lightly.
There is no evil in me and thus I don't need to be saved by anyone. My absolutely normal and human deficits and weaknesses are up to me to work on and fix.
The first verse of the Bible should tell you there is no hell as you perceive it to be. God created the heavens and the earth. Hell is a mental state of mind that you can live in, preach from and even burn in. Hell is an emotional state of fear that is unhealthy, harmful and keeps a person living in miserable fear of a mad, angry and revengeful God. Sometimes people have to burn their thoughts and ideas before they can begin to live in heaven on earth. If you look at the pictures (images) drawn over thousands of years of ago you would only be looking at an artist depicting his idea what he thought man living in fear would look like from within his mind. So the question would be why live in fear of a revengeful angry God when you can live in joy and peace on earth.
I'm sorry I posted this in another thread but I decided I want to get others opinion on this. I can't wrap my head around the fact that many people just accept that they will go to hell! Like seriously! This is nuts! And yes, I'm talking about Atheist too! I've read from various websites and forums that Atheist, even not believing in a higher deity, know that they have a possibility of going to hell and they accept this! I'm so shocked. Even if you mock it and don't believe it, I HIGHLY DOUBT hell is a place anyone wants to go! It doesn't sound appealing AT ALL! Heaven is promised to us by Jesus Christ! If you believe he died on the cross for your sins! I don't understand what is so hard about that! And why people don't want to follow the rules set for us in the bible! And even if you fall back, you pray for forgiveness! Why do you want to be held guilty when the Lord returns? You really don't want to go to heaven after living in this evil-filled world? I'm having a hard time understanding why would anyone would NOT want to be in eternal life and happiness after death?!
I'm sorry I posted this in another thread but I decided I want to get others opinion on this. I can't wrap my head around the fact that many people just accept that they will go to hell! Like seriously! This is nuts! And yes, I'm talking about Christian too! I've read from various websites and forums that Christian, even not believing Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), know that they have a possibility of going to hell and they accept this! I'm so shocked. Even if you mock it and don't believe it, I HIGHLY DOUBT hell is a place anyone wants to go! It doesn't sound appealing AT ALL! Heaven is promised to us by Allah (PBUH)! If you believe he will reward your belief! I don't understand what is so hard about that! And why people don't want to follow the rules set for us in the Holy Quran! And even if you fall back, you pray for forgiveness! Why do you want to be held guilty when meeting Allah? You really don't want to go to heaven after living in this evil-filled world? I'm having a hard time understanding why would anyone would NOT want to be in eternal life and happiness after death?!
Is it really so childish? Voting for him is just the beginning. It seems like he simply expected people to vote for him. Hell is reserved for those who wouldn't follow his rules here on Earth.
Christian salvation is through grace, not through works. Good works come from being saved but being saved is God's choice, not ours.
I reject the idea of original sin and don't think it is wise to teach that doctrine to children. If that is what you are brought up to believe and you accept it, you reflect that evil out to the world. How? By calling it evil and spreading doom and gloom.
I believe wholehearetedly that everyone of us should be taking responsibility for our own actions. What you do can affect others. That is only common sense. As in a sense that we all share.
We know when we have caused others pain. It isn't Jesus we need to be forgiven by, it is truely ourselves.
I reject the idea of original sin and don't think it is wise to teach that doctrine to children. If that is what you are brought up to believe and you accept it, you reflect that evil out to the world. How? By calling it evil and spreading doom and gloom.
I believe wholehearetedly that everyone of us should be taking responsibility for our own actions. What you do can affect others. That is only common sense. As in a sense that we all share.
We know when we have caused others pain. It isn't Jesus we need to be forgiven by, it is truely ourselves.
Creating dependence has always been key to religion. Strong, self-confident humans with a clear conscience are useless as good religious cannon fodder
You completely misunderstood my point entirely. The whole thing was if you're already living a moral and ethical life in the first place then what's the problem? Just say it's for him and you don't burn for an eternity? Instead of saying he doesn't exist just because you don't want him to exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman
No, I say he doesn't exist because I firmly believe, with lots of evidence that satisfies my inquisitive mind, that he doesnot. Why believe in some obviously ill-defined fantasy because you are, essentially, terrified of the entire idea of there being no afterlife?
I willnot "just say 'it's for him!' " just so I can try to slip in to heaven. That would be summarily dishonest, wouldn't it? It's far more than just "fessing up" one's undying devotion. Frankly, I and many other atheists despise the idea of a permanent "bowing & scraping" fealty to such an arrogant and egotistical God. (which is no surprise, given that He's simply the creation of the human mind, itself a model of arrogance and ego).
Also I take offense to being categorized into "Religious People" as I am not a religious person whatsoever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Boy, that's rich! By any definition, you most certainly are! You profess a belief in a God, you have hung your "afterlife hat" on there being a heaven, and you are willing to prostrate yourself on the throne of a non-existent God for your own future philosophical safety. That's not religious? If not, what is it? You may be a Pascalian or a Convenient Christian, but for sure, you're religious!
I will never understand why extreme atheists are so condescending. I know you hate the preachers for it so why do you go and do it right back?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rflmn
Answer: this is an open forum, and you are dabbling in and commenting on all of our various and personal beliefs. I know; you'd rather we just all buy into your dream state, huh, and endlessly pay lip service and "Praise God", as they do over on the Christianity sub. Sorry; we're way to independently minded over here! Most atheists, I remind you, were once theists. Like me! But then I grew up, learned, read, thought and now enjoy my freedom.
As well, in many instances, the "absolute" answers and statements submitted as fact by Christians and Muslims are simply too much for us to stomach, especially when the education of our children and the functioning of our government is at stake. so, we try to engage in honesty and open discussion. But in so many cases, we are routinely insulted and criticized.
Ever hear the one about the unethical, morally rudderless evil atheist or assumptive scientist? No? Well I sure have, about every day, right here on C-D. And, frankly, I'm tired of it.
I personally believe that if you cannot live your life properly, without the threat of hell hanging over your head, then you are intellectually a child. You are professing that you need a "schoolmarm" with a nasty yardstick poised over your personality in order to make it through life.
Am I wrong?
Hypocrites. I don't mean to categorize them all into one but it's been my experience (Especially on this website) that radical atheist are ridiculously facetious and condescending.
Or, we provide polite answers or discussion points and are then routinely lambasted and "tagged" [see: your typically insulting comment in the paragraph direcly above here...] by the overly devout and nauseatingly self-righteous, who then also try to scare us with their tiresome "But what if you're wrong?" crud.
(One could reasonably return this facetious question back at'cha! It's neither innocent nor uninvolved to go through your life clinging to a false, mythological hope about heaven, BTW. It blinds you to an amazing, endlessly interesting life, and groups you into a cohort that denies much of the human spirit. You feel being an atheist restricts us and damns us to "hell", while I find it spiritually uplifting and promoting of intellectually honest discussion and revelation.
Why can't Christians answer simple logical questions, especially when their argument becomes logically ensnared, or they become cornered? Answer: they are unable to see beyond their own lifelong dedication, even if it happens to be entirely incorrect. They stand to lose their safety net, their "blankey", and cannot imagine being without it.
I assume the OP is talking about the Christian heaven. Go take a good, long hard look in the mirror and you'll have one answer to the question.
The irony of Christianity is that, if you take the events in the Bible as things that actually happened, nobody deserves a place in hell more than God himself. A better question would be why does anyone worship such a being/thing/whatever? Fear, I guess.
again with this categorization. "Christian" I don't believe I have said I was a christian either and let me quote myself here since you may have skipped over that in a blind rage of disagreement and completely misunderstood my purpose here in this discussion and on this site as a whole:
"On the subject of what I believe - Like I said previously, my view of it all changes daily. I'm constantly mulling over any and all views I can get my hands on. Why would I simply accept your view without questioning it in every possible way first? Nothing has ever been completely proven or disproved to me therefore I cannot come to a concrete decision yet. After all I would say the subject is not one to be taken lightly. "
Also I'm going to go ahead and assume you think I have a close minded view on everything you atheists say and you would be wrong there as well. To be honest I've been on this is what... 4 hours? I've taken so much in my head is spinning. I have quite a bit to chew on.
Another Also to add here, My interest in religion has nothing to do with a fear of no afterlife more of a fear of a horrible afterlife where I burn in the damning fires of Hell. I would say that's quite a threat to simply ignore because some katts on a forum throw some well thought out insults my way. You see, for me you haven't truly disproved anything you've simply told me that you don't believe it. Well, honestly, I don't really believe it either. But that doesn't mean I'm going to quickly toss it as a possibility. To me it's just as hard to imagine my consciousness simply ceasing to exist as it is to imagine a God that will judge the rest of my eternity.
Last edited by Polymathic Hunt; 06-25-2010 at 07:25 AM..
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OK: I'll answer the "loaded" question...
