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We signed an offer to purchase a house which was built new for a small group of investors.
The inspection turned up a few more items than we expected, although only a couple of the issues are significant.
In a smart tactical move, the owners of the house essentially forwarded our inspection to their builder, and replied with his response, essentially trying to extricate themselves from the process (i.e. "hey, it's not our fault, here's what the builder has to say").
The builder has responded to several items by saying, "such and such was done to code, so therefore we're not changing it" even when such items are problems as discovered by the inspector (something can be built to code, and yet, still be a problem).
Ultimately, even if the builder doesn't budge, it's the owners of the house who are responsible for making the repairs (or choosing not to).
Unfortunately, the builder has not provided references to the specific code when referring to it.
Does anyone know if the library system has a copy of the latest building code? It would be best to get the copy on CD so I can easily search it.
OR, does anyone here have a copy of the code that I could borrow?
The code is managed by the Office of the State Fire Marshall under the auspices of the Office of the Department of Insurance (kind of a strange hierarchy). They list proposed 2009 amendments to the 2006 code on their website, but do not have an actual copy of the 2006 code.
The biggest issue is water in the crawl space. We have two major issues:
1. Water intrusion from inappropriate drainage around the house. This is due (in our estimation) to:
Failure to grade the slope away from the house at a minimum slope of 1" drop for 20" of run (so that at 10 feet from the house, the ground is 6" below the ground at the foundation. Is this code? My understanding is that it IS code as in R401.3, here: "Lots shall be graded so as to drain surface water away from the foundation walls. The grade away from the foundation wall shall be a minimum of 6 inches within the first 10 feet. Exception: Where lot lines, walls, slopes or other physical barriers prohibit 6”of fall within 10’, drains or swales shall be provided to ensure drainage away from the structure."
Lack of a perforated drain around the foundation. The builder has said there "is a foundation drain, and will check to see if it is clogged." Let's suppose there really is "a foundation drain." Where would such a drain be if not in a trench surrounding the house. It doesn't appear as if one has been placed (at least not by the installation instructions I have heard, e.g. dig trough, place perforated drain, cover with mesh, then cover with gravel up to surface level, then cover with pine straw, et cetera). I wouldn't know how to check if such a drain is clogged (other than by finding water in the crawlspace). I had a separate contractor come to the house and give me an estimate on placing such a drain, and he estimated $4500. What is code regarding foundation drainage? Is this covered in 401.3?
Downspouts are fitted inappropriately into their tubing receptacles leaking water at the foundation. Furthermore, they are engineered to just dump water only 3-5 feet from the house. Is there code regarding downspout placement?
2. No moisture control management within crawl space. As you have mentioned before:
We can seal the foundation vents. I don't believe the builder (or owner) has to do this, as code allows for standard foundation vents as a means of moisture management. It's a bad idea, but it can be done.
There is no vapor barrier. In the 2009 proposed amendments to code, it states that a vapor barrier must be placed in all open, vented crawl spaces. I don't know if this was part of the 2006 code. R408.2 in 2009 proposed amendments, page 50. Was this part of 2006 code, too?
3. We have three gable vents, but we also have a soffit-vent to ridge-vent system. Our inspector states that the gable vents are essentially short-circuiting the ridge vent, and should therefore be boarded up with siding from the inside and out.
The builder states that the vents were done to code, and therefore he's not changing it. However, the inspector states that in the ridge vent installation instructions, it will say not to install gable vents if installing ridge vents. This is one of those strange issues. If it's code, that doesn't mean it's done right. Do we have the right to ask for this repair, even if it is done to code? What is the code reference here?
In my experiance, to a degree it doesnt matter what the code says. Whatever the inspector wants to see to make him satisfied, they will typically get unless they are grossly unjust corrections. The building inspector has a LOT of power.
Do you have the right to walk on the deal if inspection is unsatisfactory? If so, tell owner you are walking if items aren't fixed as your inspector indicated.
It may take a couple posts to hash out the answers, I have some questions/comments I added in bold italic. What is the age of the house? The builder has no responsibility if it is a resale, unless there is a structural defect. The current owners should of had an inspection to uncover these items, so it falls on them completely. They may be able to make a case if the house is still in its 1 year warranty period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VSB
The biggest issue is water in the crawl space. We have two major issues:
are you talking standing water or damp ground at the perimeter walls?
1. Water intrusion from inappropriate drainage around the house. This is due (in our estimation) to:
Failure to grade the slope away from the house at a minimum slope of 1" drop for 20" of run (so that at 10 feet from the house, the ground is 6" below the ground at the foundation. Is this code? My understanding is that it IS code as in R401.3, here: "Lots shall be graded so as to drain surface water away from the foundation walls. The grade away from the foundation wall shall be a minimum of 6 inches within the first 10 feet. Exception: Where lot lines, walls, slopes or other physical barriers prohibit 6”of fall within 10’, drains or swales shall be provided to ensure drainage away from the structure."
Does the yard fit the exception in regards to sloping towards the house or having barriers such as retaining walls? If thats the case, you may not have 10' of runoff which would mean a swale would be implemented
Lack of a perforated drain around the foundation. The builder has said there "is a foundation drain, and will check to see if it is clogged." Let's suppose there really is "a foundation drain." Where would such a drain be if not in a trench surrounding the house. It doesn't appear as if one has been placed (at least not by the installation instructions I have heard, e.g. dig trough, place perforated drain, cover with mesh, then cover with gravel up to surface level, then cover with pine straw, et cetera). I wouldn't know how to check if such a drain is clogged (other than by finding water in the crawlspace). I had a separate contractor come to the house and give me an estimate on placing such a drain, and he estimated $4500. What is code regarding foundation drainage? Is this covered in 401.3?
401.3 in its entirety is stated as above. There is no requirement for a perimeter drain, although many newer houses have them.
How do you know there is not a perimeter drain? Did the inspector dig down 12-18" at the foundation wall or was he guessing? It is common for positive foundation drains (at the lowest corner of the crawlspace) to become clogged as they typically do not run them to daylight as required
Downspouts are fitted inappropriately into their tubing receptacles leaking water at the foundation. Furthermore, they are engineered to just dump water only 3-5 feet from the house. Is there code regarding downspout placement?
There are no code requirements for gutters at all, builders do not even need to install them (although I wish there was). When installed, extensions and down spouts are also not required.
2. No moisture control management within crawl space. As you have mentioned before:
We can seal the foundation vents. I don't believe the builder (or owner) has to do this, as code allows for standard foundation vents as a means of moisture management. It's a bad idea, but it can be done.
That will help cure humidity related moisture issues only
There is no vapor barrier. In the 2009 proposed amendments to code, it states that a vapor barrier must be placed in all open, vented crawl spaces. I don't know if this was part of the 2006 code. R408.2 in 2009 proposed amendments, page 50. Was this part of 2006 code, too?
As of 2006 code, well drained soil does not require a vapor barrier. Typically this only applies to the eastern side of the triangle such as garner, clayton and east raleigh
3. We have three gable vents, but we also have a soffit-vent to ridge-vent system. Our inspector states that the gable vents are essentially short-circuiting the ridge vent, and should therefore be boarded up with siding from the inside and out.
The builder states that the vents were done to code, and therefore he's not changing it. However, the inspector states that in the ridge vent installation instructions, it will say not to install gable vents if installing ridge vents. This is one of those strange issues. If it's code, that doesn't mean it's done right. Do we have the right to ask for this repair, even if it is done to code? What is the code reference here?
There would be no code for this issue. Attic ventilation is based on x amount of ventilation space for every x amount of sq footage. Manufacturers instruction supercedes all and any code regardless. To be honest, it really is not a problem to have gable, soffit and ridge vents working together. This is a CYA recommendation by the ridge vent manufacturers. I would not worry a bit about this issue, but the water in the crawl definitely has to be solved.
One thing you have to understand is, the state requires us inspectors to do a tremendous amount of CYA stating. Some of my peers tend to take things a bit too far. Without seeing the house, I would guess this house has a flat yard, or sloped towards the house on one plane. With no gutter extensions (and maybe no splashblocks?) the runoff is dropping at the foundation where it enters the crawlspace through the porous block/brick foundation walls. If you have a digital copy of the inspection report, send it to me at a1houseinspectors@gmail.com so I can see any pictures and notes. Maybe I can help you get to the bottom of this. Feel free to keep asking questions, as maybe this thread will help others down the road.
Thanks for your comments. Hopefully my added comments (in red) will help clarify our situation.
Basic Information:
1. New construction.
2. Old foundation which was expanded to support larger footprint.
3. Foundation is a spot footing style foundation over a crawl space, as far as I understand.
are you talking standing water or damp ground at the perimeter walls?
Both, though very little standing water, mostly damp ground.
Does the yard fit the exception in regards to sloping towards the house or having barriers such as retaining walls? If thats the case, you may not have 10' of runoff which would mean a swale would be implemented
As you guessed, the yard is essentially flat in the east, and slopes toward the house on its south side. The yard slopes away from the house on the north and western face. The house sits on a corner lot and there is only about 7' from the south face of the house to the to the property line. Otherwise, there are no physical barriers and adequate space. Does the 7' distance qualify as an "exception" to the grading requirement? If so, it seems to me that a drain or a swale could be placed. Also, if there are no restrictions, then the code states that the land must be graded (e.g. in the east, where the backyard is flat) or drains should be placed.
401.3 in its entirety is stated as above. There is no requirement for a perimeter drain, although many newer houses have them.
How do you know there is not a perimeter drain? Did the inspector dig down 12-18" at the foundation wall or was he guessing? It is common for positive foundation drains (at the lowest corner of the crawlspace) to become clogged as they typically do not run them to daylight as required
1. Don't know for sure that there's not a perimeter drain. Our inspector feels there probably is one, i.e. the original one that was placed when the house was built ages ago.
2. The inspector did not dig, and was guessing.
3. I'm not understanding how the drain gets clogged. I could understand how the drain would simply fill with water if it wasn't "running to daylight." Once filled, it would run out of capacity to carry any more water, and the water would have an opportunity to seep through the foundation walls.
4. I understand that a drain doesn't have to be placed in all cases. However, if the slope isn't graded appropriately, and there is evidence of water in the crawlspace, doesn't that constitute a code violation? Something should be done to mitigate the water drainage.
There are no code requirements for gutters at all, builders do not even need to install them (although I wish there was). When installed, extensions and down spouts are also not required.
Too bad.
We can seal the foundation vents. I don't believe the builder (or owner) has to do this, as code allows for standard foundation vents as a means of moisture management.
That will help cure humidity related moisture issues only
Right.
As of 2006 code, well drained soil does not require a vapor barrier. Typically this only applies to the eastern side of the triangle such as garner, clayton and east raleigh
Page 33 of this link appears to suggest that a vapor barrier is required. Am I reading it wrong? Were these only proposed amendments that weren't instituted?
There would be no code for this issue. Attic ventilation is based on x amount of ventilation space for every x amount of sq footage. Manufacturers instruction supercedes all and any code regardless. To be honest, it really is not a problem to have gable, soffit and ridge vents working together. This is a CYA recommendation by the ridge vent manufacturers. I would not worry a bit about this issue, but the water in the crawl definitely has to be solved.
I definitely got the sense that attic ventilation was not as important and I am most concerned about the water issues. I don't want mold/mildew problems, et cetera, and I certainly don't want any foundation stability issues.
If you have a digital copy of the inspection report, send it to me at a1houseinspectors@gmail.com so I can see any pictures and notes. Maybe I can help you get to the bottom of this. Feel free to keep asking questions, as maybe this thread will help others down the road.
Not to make light of anything that was shown in the report, and I believe you've received excellent support from sacredgrooves, but it has been uncommonly WET this fall/winter. If you've just recently inspected, it's likely that you're seeing the house at its absolute worst. I'm seeing water in crawlspaces where I've never seen it before....typically though, on older houses with grading challenges.
#2 should be a gimme for either you or the owner to take care of. This is a quick trip to Lowes or Home Depot to buy a vapor barrier and laying it down with appropriate overlap in the crawlspace. I would not seal the crawlspace ventilation unless you are going to proceed with creating an insulated and dry crawlspace which includes insulating the foundation walls and creating a sealed membrane that encompasses foundation walls and the ground. If the ultimate energy performance is your goal, pursue the sealed crawlspace. If cost is a factor, the vapor barrier is the way to go.
#3 is another gimme. You'll find the experts are split in half on the gable vent. One school of thought says that if you have appropriate soffit ventilation (that's not covered by insulation) and a ridge vent, you don't need them, and they could create some additional turbulance that interferes with the draw from soffit to ridge. The other school of thought suggests that extra opportunity for ventilation isn't a bad thing. If you decide to close them off, it's a quick fix with some plywood.
#1 is your main issue, and it looks like you're getting some good information in previous posts.
At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself if you're getting what you consider is a fair price for the home you really want, and how many of the repairs are you willing to take care of over time? I always see the home inspection as a valuable list of maintenance items for the longterm care of the home.
I have a copy of the 2006 NC Residential Code here in my office. You're welcome to come peruse. PM me.
RE: ROOF VENTILATION- gable vents (used in conjunction with soffit and ridge vents)
The science here is pretty simple. Have you ever tried to drink from a straw that had a hole in it? Ideally the amount of soffit venting was installed proportional to the ridge venting according to the manufacturer's instructions and ventilation will naturally occur (if there are baffles that ensure the soffits vents are not obstructed by insulation) Gable vents can be sealed inexpensively with 6 mil polyethylene from inside the attic with wood lattice strips to totally block the gable vents.
RE: ROOF VENTILATION- gable vents (used in conjunction with soffit and ridge vents)
The science here is pretty simple. Have you ever tried to drink from a straw that had a hole in it? Ideally the amount of soffit venting was installed proportional to the ridge venting according to the manufacturer's instructions and ventilation will naturally occur (if there are baffles that ensure the soffits vents are not obstructed by insulation) Gable vents can be sealed inexpensively with 6 mil polyethylene from inside the attic with wood lattice strips to totally block the gable vents.
That would remedy any potential issues. Good post!
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