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I have not followed all 123 pages of this thread, and I hate it when people say that and chime in, but I think the appeal of the Triangle as a whole is the family-friendly suburban nature of the beast. I understand the push for density, but that's not why people find the area attractive, IMO.
I am not opposed to improving public transit here. But I think the concern I have is a couple of fold:
1. This area (and we have seen this opinion shared on this board) seems to have the opinion that "public transit is for poor people" which is laugh out loud funny. I took commuter rail into Boston and then either electric street bus or subway for work for years. I assure you there are many professionals (including bank CEOs) who use it assuming it provides a value proposition to them (i.e. less of a headache to take a train/bus than sit in traffic)
2. My fear is this area will dabble in light rail/commuter rail/[enter option of your choice] and it won't be effective at first (I would argue we aren't near needing a Commuter rail yet) and it will get cast as some "see....more government waste!!!" and it will die and then we'll be Cincy who has nothing other than city buses for public transit because they abandoned a subway in the 1950s as part of people fleeing the city for the burbs due to....well....you know.
But yes, I do fid it funny that multi-family attached housing is somehow on the fringe of "not allowed".
Yes, agreed about the public transit. Many do not realize that people would be more than happy to ditch their car if the public transit is reliable. We can't have a single bus running every hour or so. We need to get bus running every 10-15 minutes and have an extensive network. People will be more than willing to live out in exurbs, if they can reliably get to Durham DT, RTP or Raleigh on time.
I think there are like 2-3 threads are going about these issues and I am totally confused now -- this all sounds like deja vu, cause I feel like I keep repeating myself.
I am not opposed to improving public transit here. But I think the concern I have is a couple of fold:
1. This area (and we have seen this opinion shared on this board) seems to have the opinion that "public transit is for poor people" which is laugh out loud funny. I took commuter rail into Boston and then either electric street bus or subway for work for years. I assure you there are many professionals (including bank CEOs) who use it assuming it provides a value proposition to them (i.e. less of a headache to take a train/bus than sit in traffic)
2. My fear is this area will dabble in light rail/commuter rail/[enter option of your choice] and it won't be effective at first (I would argue we aren't near needing a Commuter rail yet) and it will get cast as some "see....more government waste!!!" and it will die and then we'll be Cincy who has nothing other than city buses for public transit because they abandoned a subway in the 1950s as part of people fleeing the city for the burbs due to....well....you know.
But yes, I do find it funny that multi-family attached housing is somehow on the fringe of "not allowed".
Most of those people have never visited a major metro and actually taken public transportation. Even Michael Bloomberg uses the subway in NYC.
Like everything that comes here, if it's new, it will be met with initial skepticism by the homers. Once they have a chance to try it, there opinions and attitudes change dramtically.
Along this same line of thought...I personally think that it's healthier for the Triangle's inner-ring suburban areas to maintain and increase their value and still be seen as desirable places to live as the area grows and expands out.
I think a good example of how "it's better than the alternative" would be to look at the Dallas Metroplex. The "old" suburbs closest to Dallas and FW that were built up in the 70s-90s have not really kept their value and are considered less desirable than the new new new built further and further out into surrounding counties. Leaving the "old burbs" fairly unkempt with a shrinking tax-base. One of my former supervisors/mentors grew up in the "mid cities" areas right between Dallas and FW; very convenient to most of the area; who said it was basically Cary in the 80s/90s when he was growing up and would now considered kind of "meh".
I have no beef with that Nick. I think that is the "natural outcome of location". Something closer should appreciate/be more valuable than another spot further away.
If 25+ years from now Wake Forest is basically Canton MA and Oxford is something like Halifax MA (Canton is far more appreciative (can I use that term in this context?) than Halifax where both have Commuter Rail stations and have nice homes but Canton is denser and goes for a good chunk more while Halifax is newer, has bigger lots, but less amenities...and a far longer drive if you're heading into the city....then I think the area hit on what should have been its goals.
Even though people from here originally/been here for awhile couldn't comprehend such a thing since it is so drastically different than "what it was". You drove 30 miles....for what!!!!
Most of those people have never visited a major metro and actually taken public transportation. Even Michael Bloomberg uses the subway in NYC.
Like everything that comes here, if it's new, it will be met with initial skepticism by the homers. Once they have a chance to try it, there opinions and attitudes change dramtically.
But we are nothing like New York or Chicago or Boston and never will be. You could look at Atlanta and Marta or Dallas and Houston for examples, or even Charlotte, but using NY or Chicago or Boston as examples is just not good. Those are the places people are fleeing to come here. The census gives us a new Representative and takes one away from NY. People don't WANT NY-style any more. They want NC-style.
GVOR, I think my point either got lost or maybe it wasn't clearly stated: when I say build for density I mean the urban core. Of course, SFH won't disappear. They'll always be available. Places like Chicago or Boston - they are built for density. You see all those row houses, duplexes, brownstones (that no one can afford at this point) there. They exist there which we can't say about here. Here we do not have that luxury. This area is semi-suburban. And with all that development and growth, that's going to bit us in the ass. As I said in my previous post, why are we keep allowing SFH in east Durham -- the only affordable part of Durham left? Margins are great so every freaking developer keeps building a SFH there. That shouldn't be happening. There should be a bit more thought put into it.
I lived in Denver for 10 years and in Boulder for a few more. My partner's whole family is from Austin so I've spent time there a lot. I am familiar with both. Yes, you can live in Lakewood or even move to Golden. But, Denver is doing as much as it can do get the public transit happen. Someone can live in Golden and take the light rail. There are park-n-rides everywhere. They use toll roads for express bus lanes. I used to commute from Boulder to Denver, and used to bike from home to the closet P-n-R, lock my bike up and get on an express bus. My bus fees were covered by my employer 100%.
But, based on what's happening here, we have to work on both. I really can't imagine for the Triangle area to get their **** together and have a good functioning public transit quickly. So why not at least work on having a denser core while we figure out the light rail or at least a good rapid bus system?
I wouldn’t be surprised if autonomous vehicles caused a big disruption to the traditional notion of mass-transit lines to support population growth. A properly coordinated autonomous infrastructure may be able to squeeze a lot more efficiency out of the road systems and avoid some of the major LA-style gridlock.
People don't WANT NY-style any more. They want NC-style.
That's not true at all and is a terrible argument against public transportation.
People don't just move and shun off all their past life experiences, wants, and desires. If they did you wouldn't see posts on here that Wegmans is like the second coming or people lining up for such-and-such chain's first location in NC.
I love NC. I was born, raised, and educated here. I have traveled to other cities for work/pleasure in the States and abroad that have amazing public transit systems. I've used those systems for weeks at a time to get me solely where I needed to go. Every time I come back here and have to drive again to places I'm always like "well this ****ing sucks, I wish we had better transit options".
But we are nothing like New York or Chicago or Boston and never will be. You could look at Atlanta and Marta or Dallas and Houston for examples, or even Charlotte, but using NY or Chicago or Boston as examples is just not good. Those are the places people are fleeing to come here. The census gives us a new Representative and takes one away from NY. People don't WANT NY-style any more. They want NC-style.
I'm pretty sure "**** I hate the LL Railway/ Metro North Railway and the MTA...we've got to go!" are not on the reasons why folks leave the Tri-State area. Alternatively, no one is leaving MA because the MBTA.
Its either Job Related, Politics Related or Cost/Quality of life related (in whatever order you want to put them in).
But we are nothing like New York or Chicago or Boston and never will be. You could look at Atlanta and Marta or Dallas and Houston for examples, or even Charlotte, but using NY or Chicago or Boston as examples is just not good. Those are the places people are fleeing to come here. The census gives us a new Representative and takes one away from NY. People don't WANT NY-style any more. They want NC-style.
Okay, but what happens when NC-style is out of reach? It was great up until now, but now the cat is out of the box (or whatever that English expression is; I am bad with those), all these tech companies are going to get here and this place will explode even more. For example, Durham county population was 224,633 in 2000 and by 2019 it grew to 321,488. That's a lot. We can't just say this is what people are coming for. Some of them are coming for jobs, not for NC-style housing. They maybe leaving NY for something different, but we do not want this place turn into a turd sandwich just because we didn't plan for growth. Multi-family homes or public transportation aren't just for NY or Boston. At this point, it's for any mid-sized city. We can't just sit on our hands hoping that things will get sorted by themself.
I agree comparing this place to Boston or NY is a bit too much and unrealistic, but I think Austin is a comparable city to Raleigh for example -- it's a capital, it also was a small city that grew exponentially and quickly. And, look what's happening there, sprawled all the way to Round Rock and beyond, no good/reliable transportation and people sitting in traffic for hours in 95-100+ degree heat. At least their voters approved a project that would expand their current bus system and will add light rail too. Here is the project info: https://www.capmetro.org/project-con...ial-investment
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