Redrawing Oregon Border (Portland, Salem, Bend: cabinet, vs., cabin)

[Pomelo]

Originally Posted by texasdiver

Sales tax is the 3rd rail of Oregon politics. Go ahead and propose it as a politician and watch your career implode around you in real time. Seriously. Not going to ever happen.

Oregon and Washington would both gain if they managed to harmonize their tax systems to eliminate all the billions that are probably lost on both sides of the border through evasion. But that just isn't ever going to happen for a lot of complicated historical reasons.

I doubt Washington is losing billions. The vast majority of people do not spend enough on WA sales taxable items (such as electronics/clothing/consumables) to warrant traveling to OR, unless you live on the border and even then it is questionable. The big purchases like cars/boats/planes/land/buildings gets registered with the government, so there is no option but to pay sales tax on those.

I bet Oregon is disproportionately impacted because its major economy, Portland metro, is located adjacent to a state with no income tax, so a remote worker can have the benefits of living in a metro adjacent suburb without dealing with the costs of the metro. And the higher the income, the more arbitrage gain for the worker, and the higher the loss for Oregon.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by texasdiver

Sales tax is the 3rd rail of Oregon politics. Go ahead and propose it as a politician and watch your career implode around you in real time. Seriously. Not going to ever happen.

Oregon and Washington would both gain if they managed to harmonize their tax systems to eliminate all the billions that are probably lost on both sides of the border through evasion. But that just isn't ever going to happen for a lot of complicated historical reasons.

I am not sure you are correct in that assessment.

You are defaulting to some unexplained vague convoluted uber-comprehensive reason for why things cannot be challenged.



A few comments:

1. It has not been on the table in decades so past experiences may not be relevant. People of means are now bailing out and that should concern die hard "Pro Oregonians."


2. Politician should not be a "career." It is one of the reasons for large downward trajectory of the country.

3. Majority of people take little interest in manners of government (to their detriment) A cognizant, sound argument could easily be put forth showing benefits and if even a few of the states loudmouthed, Democrats got behind it, it could take hold.


The arguments behind closed doors of the Democrat caucus could be: 1) Another tax to wield power and manipulate as we see fit. 2) less reliance on an income tax and the wealthier who pay it (who are starting to leave.) 3) We structure this sales tax such that we actually take more money from our citizens,but we fudge the data so they don't realize it for years.

[redguard57]

The question of whether there should be a sales tax would depend on what we would get for it. Whether to lower or raise the income tax would depend on whether the state would benefit from making such a move.

Some of the states with lowest taxes don't attract that many people. The ones with highest don't always lose that many.

People like to make arguments one way or another, but my experience is that state governments don't really affect my life that much, and the tax burden had little to do with making the state better or worse.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

I am not sure you are correct in that assessment.

You are defaulting to some unexplained vague convoluted uber-comprehensive reason for why things cannot be challenged.



A few comments:

1. It has not been on the table in decades so past experiences may not be relevant. People of means are now bailing out and that should concern die hard "Pro Oregonians."


2. Politician should not be a "career." It is one of the reasons for large downward trajectory of the country.

3. Majority of people take little interest in manners of government (to their detriment) A cognizant, sound argument could easily be put forth showing benefits and if even a few of the states loudmouthed, Democrats got behind it, it could take hold.


The arguments behind closed doors of the Democrat caucus could be: 1) Another tax to wield power and manipulate as we see fit. 2) less reliance on an income tax and the wealthier who pay it (who are starting to leave.) 3) We structure this sales tax such that we actually take more money from our citizens,but we fudge the data so they don't realize it for years.

A sales tax has come before the voters 9 times. The most recent time in the 1980s it was supported by a high-profile campaign by the Republican governor Vic Atiyeh. It was defeated by the voters by a 4-1 margin.

If you think voters today would be more friendly towards a sales tax than in the 1980s I think you seriously misunderstand political sentiment in Oregon.

I think that was the last time a general sales tax was on the ballot. There have been subsequent attempts at various back-door sales taxes like the recent attempt to tax gross receipts by larger companies. All of them have been handily defeated.

Whether or not there *SHOULD* be a sales tax in Oregon is an entirely different question. But to assume that political sentiment has changed in Oregon and that current voters would be more friendly towards the idea of a sales tax than in the past is to seriously misunderstand Oregon. People would not trust the government to do anything useful with the money, nor would they trust it to reduce other taxes to compensate.

[computerhick88]

Taxation is theft.

[NW Crow]

Roads, schools, law enforcement, etc. aren't free and every county has voluntarily chosen to provide themselves of them to some degree.

Really object to any taxes? There are some very rough, difficult, dangerous places in the world with little or no government taxes actually collected perhaps. But criminal warlord "taxes" of some kind probably. Sorry, many things are not free.

The roads an average person drives on daily probably cost millions to tens of millions in small places if not hundred of millions if get on a highway. Many hundreds of millions to many billions in big cities. Whatever that splits out to build & maintain it is virtually unavoidable and a lot. Law enforcement cost hundreds per year per person at minimum. Courts and prisons hundreds more. Schools around $10k / yr per student. More public cost probably for university students.

Use of any and all public services and amenities without assent to pay for them is essentially desired / attempted theft. Don't want taxes, leave civilization.

Want lower taxes, vote, participate, use less, move.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by texasdiver

A sales tax has come before the voters 9 times. The most recent time in the 1980s it was supported by a high-profile campaign by the Republican governor Vic Atiyeh. It was defeated by the voters by a 4-1 margin.

If you think voters today would be more friendly towards a sales tax than in the 1980s I think you seriously misunderstand political sentiment in Oregon.

I think that was the last time a general sales tax was on the ballot. There have been subsequent attempts at various back-door sales taxes like the recent attempt to tax gross receipts by larger companies. All of them have been handily defeated.

Whether or not there *SHOULD* be a sales tax in Oregon is an entirely different question. But to assume that political sentiment has changed in Oregon and that current voters would be more friendly towards the idea of a sales tax than in the past is to seriously misunderstand Oregon. People would not trust the government to do anything useful with the money, nor would they trust it to reduce other taxes to compensate.

I think you pointed out that OR used to be kind of Republican.... so things change - but nough said.

[509]

I think it is pretty funny that the Democrats in Washington state think "all their problems" would be solved if Washington had a income tax.

I think it is pretty funny that the Democrats in Oregon think "all their problems" would be solved if Oregon had a sales tax.

Maybe the problem is not the taxation system??

[redguard57]

I would be against a sales tax unless we also lowered the income tax at the same time. I would also want to know what we are going to get for our money. I have no problem with taxation per se, but I want to see what the benefit is. To me, I'm on the fence of whether the state of Oregon gives back appropriate value for the taxes it collects. Ie: our school system kinda sucks. The graduation rate is abysmal and isn't getting better.

But to get back to topic, I don't think Oregon's taxation is system is behind the Greater Idaho movement. It seems to be driven by cultural anxieties.

[texasdiver]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

I think you pointed out that OR used to be kind of Republican.... so things change - but nough said.

A lot more Republicans would still get elected in OR if they were sensible moderate types like Mark Hatfield, Tom McCall, and Vic Atiyeh. Now Oregon gets crazed Q-Anon election denier types like Jo Rae Perkins.

But Democratic or Republican, Oregon voters are not going to vote for a sales tax. Not going to happen.