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Since few (thinking) people's opinions fall neatly into line w/ liberal or conservative dogma, this is a pertinent topic. Here goes:
Liberals are right about:
1. The environment. While liberals do waste a bit of time/energy worrying about polar bears rather than human beings, I think anyone can simply look around them and see that the environment is going to hell in a handbasket. With China and India poised to start falling in love w/ the automobile, and with westerners gobbling up more resources than ever, it's safe to say the environment is, as liberals often say, a topic to be VERY concerned about.
2. Abortion. There are LOTS of abortions performed in this country every year. Could you imagine if those who did not have abortions actually carried those fetuses to term? The welfare rolls would explode, and the cycle of poverty would be even more vicious than it is already. Ignorant teenagers and jobless twentysomethings have zero business creating life, but thankfully we still have the option of nipping things in the bud beforehand.
3. Gay rights. There has yet to be made a viable argument for why gays shouldn't marry or adopt; therefore, they should be able to. Plus, aren't conservatives all about the government getting out of people's personal business? Yet, they love big government on this particular issue...
4. The war. Has anyone on the right even bothered to look up Osama Bin Laden on wikipedia? A prime motivation for the terrorists is getting "infidel" U.S. soldiers out of the "sacred" mideast. Therefore, I highly doubt the solution is sending MORE U.S. soldiers straight into the holy land....
Conservatives are right about:
1. Crime. Liberals are ridiculously obsessed w/ the "rights" of rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. Obviously a free country such as ours needs to preserve the rights of the accused, but liberals take well-intentioned sympathy way too far, when it should be aimed at crime VICTIMS rather than perpetrators.
2. Disdain for cultural relativism. Unlike many liberals, I don't excuse racism/sexism/religious intolerance/terrorism/hatred because it's "just part of someone's culture."
3. Taxation. At least in theory, conservatives decry high taxes. The fact that nearly a fifth of my ****ty salary is given to the government should be criminalized, not viewed as a foundation for more taxation.
What Liberals and Conservatives are BOTH wrong about:
1. Overpopulation. Neither side is going to touch this issue w/ a ten foot pole, because it's probably the most taboo topic out there. Large families hurt modern society big time, especially ones that come from the underclass and will thus need to be supported by taxpayer dollars in the decades to come. Conservatives think all babies are god's precious angels, and that even broke teenagers can revel in the glory of child after child. Similarly, liberals think it's un-PC to criticize ignorant poor people for popping out kid and after kid, even though the kids themselves are the ones who suffer the most. I would love for some politician to have the courage to say, "Hey Americans: stop having so many freakin' kids."
2. Healthcare. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo is horrendous, and yet more money being yanked out of my paltry paycheck is also a terrifying thought.
3. The economy. Is anyone doing anything about job creation? Anyone? Bueller? Conservatives seem totally fine w/ the way things are, whereas liberals just want to tax and spend and support a permanent dependent class. Surely there is a better solution?
I agree with Casper, it is pretty hard to identify what is right or wrong about either side as most of us are a mixture:
Off the top of my head I would say:
Liberals are right about equal partnership (domestic) for gays. As for marriage, I do draw the line there, as my foster daughter, who is a lesbian puts it: marriage is a religious ceremony between a man and a woman.
Legalization of pot.
more acceptance of minorities: I know conservatives will say they are open minded when it comes to minorities, but as a group they are more racists. Of course I think blacks are as well.
Enviorment: conservatives are coming around but liberals got there first. Again, we have to be careful how far this is carried.
Conservatives are right about putting a cap on spending. That is why so many have mixed feelings about a government run health care program, if medicare and ss are broke, what makes libs think there will be money to support a massive program?
The need to defend our country at any cost.
Expecting people to earn their own way and not depending on the rich to support the poor. The government should be there to assist as little as possible, not as much as possible.
Being responsible: no it isn't society's fault if I do something wrong, it is my fault..
More states rights, fewer federal regualtions.
I know there are other things, but these are what come to my mind.
mysticaltyger, I am sorry but I just do not understand what it is that gays and lesbians will get out of marriage unless it is the legal and tax benefits that married heterosexual couples were given years ago by the I.R.S. and other governmental agencies.
My understanding of human sociology/anthropology is that marriage is found in most religions for the purposes that you stated: to provide for the children in their emotional, social, economic and health development. Later, tax advantages were added by certain governments since at that time, most women did not work outside the home.
Marriage also makes it harder for one parent to up and leave on a whim: there are financial and social penalties to be paid although the social ones are diminishing.
So, what is it that gays want? The tax advantage? (As DINKS -double income, no kids- most gay couples have tons of disposable income; do they need more?)
The legal right to say "We're married!"? That novelty may well wear off after one generation.
What? What is it? I really am curious.
I'm not tyger and I'm not gay, but as a widow I can tell you what I see as one of the most important things they would get from marriage. Automatic inheritance. When my husband died there were no 'hoops' I had to jump through to become sole owner of everything he owned. For his cars, I simply had to go into the DMV with his titles, registrations and a copy of the death certificate. When I wanted to sell the house 4 years later, again, all I needed was a copy of the death certificate. And, with that also comes easier access to both the spouse and information should one of them be hospitalized.
Your points have been well made since it seems to be primarily for tax considerations, health-care, and social security. Again, this is a fairly modern development (marriage for tax, health-care and social security). Other societies and cultures probably do not have these issues and, thus, use mostly religious reasons for enforcing marriage. And those religious reasons spring up, it seems, mostly for:
1. Economic protection of the women (mostly) since they tend to be stay-at-home and child carers;
2. Attempts to keep men in line, sexually. (This doesn't really work that well, eh?)
3. Provision for the children.
So the traditional purpose for marriage (in most cultures) has been superceded by newer reasons for marriage in post-modern cultures.
I rep you because you provide well-thought out arguments and do not shoot those that may differ from your viewpoint. This is a dying skill in American discussion forums.
I mostly agree with your historical assessment of marriage. Any time heterosexuals are willing to give up the benefits they receive from state sponsored marriage, I will be ok with it. But we both know that's not gonna happen. The point is, the laws should be equal, regardless of sexual orientation...no double standards.
But I also do think there is a stron social aspect to this, and I'd be lying if I said there's a strong desire among us for acceptance. You just can't know what it's like to grow up ashamed and fearful of your sexual orientation unless you've been there. The shame and fear inflicted upon gays in their youth creates lots of social/emotional/economic barriers that you can't understand unless you've lived it.
Thanks for the rep. I agree with you that well thought out arguments are a dying art (on both the liberal and conservative sides) and I don't like what this says about Americans.
2. Healthcare. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo is horrendous, and yet more money being yanked out of my paltry paycheck is also a terrifying thought.
Since you're open to suggestion on this issue, I'll recommend an excellent book on the topic.
The bottom line on the health care issue is that there are all kinds of barriers to competition in the health care industry, and that is why it is very expensive with poor results. Trading a corporate oligopoly for a government monopoly (or combining the two in various forms) is not really going to make the health care marketplace more cost effective
Who Killed Health Care?: America's $2 Trillion Medical Problem - and the Consumer-Driven Cure
:
1) The War on Drugs-The biggest waste of money and human life in this country's history. Legalize and take away the profit and you take away the motivation and the crime related to the drug trade. Tax it and put the money into prevention and treatment programs. Or at least decriminalize it.
The war on drugs employs more people than any conventional war has in our nation's history. (Lawyers, prosecutors, judges, prison guards, police, etc. etc.)
And, as in any war, people are exploited and ruined, homes are ruined or seized, and families are destroyed.
The economy heavily depends on this kind of "civil" (Keynesian) war.
As I'm more conservative than liberal I'll just do the liberal.
Liberals are more right about
The Environment - Although sometimes they go too far on it. However I think global warming is real and largely man-made. I think desertification and deforestation might be greater issues, but still I'll give them some points..
I used to believe global warming was man made, but now I think it's pure BS. I think it's just another way to whip up fear so that those who want a global one-world dictatorship can create more international laws and agreements to erode the sovereignty of individual nation-states. There are plenty of scientists who don't believe global warming is man made. But they don't get any attention in the liberal press. There's a lot of politics in science, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Consumerism - I do think there are some things about the kind of greedy materialism of the Reagan/post-Reagan era that is decidedly un-conservative and yet is mostly only criticized on the Left. If getting rich at any cost is the best thing you can do is it too surprising kids go for dealing drugs or dumping their families on the rise to the top?..
I agree with you on the materialism issue. But I just don't think liberal voters are any less materialistic than anyone else, so there's a lot of hypocrisy there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Both are wrong about
The Deficit - In that both don't really care. Conservatives want a massive deficit that's caused by tax cuts and liberals want massive deficits to be caused by spending. Both support the idea of a massive deficit in practice if not in public. Although I understand the need for deficit spending during a recession I still have an inkling massive deficits like we're running could become an actual problem...
Agreed 100%. Problem is with the electorate itself. We don't want to hear that programs like Social Security and Medicare are on an unsustainable path. We want programs cut or taxes raised for "the other guy" but aren't willing to give up anything ourselves. And please.....I don't want to hear from anyone saying if we just ended the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan that it would solve our financial problems. It wouldn't. Not even close. Yes, it really is that bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Economic mobility - Conservatives of late seem to believe poor people become middle-class purely by personal will so Pell grants or vocational programs or whatever are a waste of money. Liberals seem to think that either there's nothing to be done to change your status, so the government has to keep you as a dependent, or that simply throwing money at you is sufficient. Neither really says much of anything, in my opinion, for the working poor. (Possibly thinking they don't need to as the working poor I believe vote less often) I'm aware this might seem to contradict number 1, but I'm not saying spend massive amounts on the working poor. I think possibly we could spend the same amount as we do now, but get better results.
I do tend to agree with you on these. Conservatives have a kind of "oh well you're poor, tough sh*t" kind of attitude. I will say, however, that Conservatives do promote marriage but are shouted down every time they suggest that married two parent families are actually better for kids (a la Murphy Brown vs. Dan Quayle).
It turns out a lot of the financial research concludes that people who get married and stay married do much, much, better financially than people who divorce and/or have kids out of wedlock. If we want more economic equality and mobility, we have to re-institute the marriage culture, which has disintegrated among the poor and the working class, and many of the middle class.
Last edited by mysticaltyger; 11-01-2009 at 01:17 PM..
I'm not tyger and I'm not gay, but as a widow I can tell you what I see as one of the most important things they would get from marriage. Automatic inheritance. When my husband died there were no 'hoops' I had to jump through to become sole owner of everything he owned. For his cars, I simply had to go into the DMV with his titles, registrations and a copy of the death certificate. When I wanted to sell the house 4 years later, again, all I needed was a copy of the death certificate. And, with that also comes easier access to both the spouse and information should one of them be hospitalized.
Yes, thank you for those examples. Those are a few of many.
There are economic liberals and conservatives, and there are social liberals and conservatives. More and more, they are splitting, and more and more people are on on the liberal side on one, and the conservative side on the other. People call themselves liberals or conservatives, and then mix up the two concepts, and turn out to be, on many issues, the opposite of what they call themselves.
Instead of keeping the focus on what people call themselves, the more plausible explanation is that the political parties themselves have failed to keep up with their constituents. That is to say, We The People have changed in ways (for better or worse) that no longer resemble any party tradition on the books. Awkward to say the least. That occurs to few because our culture has conditioned us to look for the source of problems outside ourselves instead of within.
Doubts? High comedy watching poli pundits scramble around for demographic explanations about who america is now, and how they OUGHT to vote based on stereotypes they mass produce. How many joe six packs do you know, and especially, how willing are you to hand them your 1040 form, 401k or checkbook as best qualified to take care of biz?
Kudo's to the OP, though, because when I hear the word liberal or conservative, I do not associate either with a cuss word anymore than a proton or an electron has greater emotional worth. In my mind they're both vital elements that make up the grander tapestry.
I agree about most of what's been attributed as the positive side of each. Others mean to sell the story that the warp is far superior than the weft. Unadulterated BS, but it sells regularly to the tabloid/ WWWF fans. Next election could be held in a Roman colosseum with live lions if we truly mean to pander to that mentality.
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