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That's an interesting point for discussion. I have often heard that grades are supposed to be a measurement or an assessment but I've often seen and felt they were neither. Rather they seem to be used punitively. There are so many more ways to get a bad grade compared to the ways to get a good one.
Consider if they are a measurement, what are they a measurement of? What are they measuring against? Some would say a bell curve. Oh really? Which "bell curve" are they measuring against? That of the entire population or of the specific test in the specific class they are in? Or are they measuring against a standard? What standard? How was it determined? If C is defined as Average, is that good or bad? Why is it so often considered "bad" for a student to get a C? It would be the expected value so shouldn't that be a good thing?
There's a lot to unpack in that question of "what is a grade?"
Well there's a lot of "chiefs" in schools now that weren't there before.
At one school I reported to the Math Curriculum Coach who reported to the Math Dept head who reported to the school Curriculum Administrator who reported to the Principal. This was middle school.
I was working from a grant for the school for 1 year for math remediation. There was no academic interaction with them; it was all strictly about the paperwork required for the grant money.
Another school I worked at had Curriculum Coaches at each school and then one at the District level when all the while the curriculum was posted on the state website and that's what we had to use.
There are now layers of people between the teacher and the principal.
Imagine what teachers could make in salary if you got rid of them all ? Because they didn't always be there.
That was my question as well but I really didn't pursue it...
It was just something I noticed in various schools that I worked in.
I thought.."so that's where all the extra money goes"..because very little gets to the teachers as it trickles down.
That's why I said "almost anything". I can't help but wonder if you live up to the expectations you have for everyone else, and why you think only your standard is the right standard.
I don't think my standard is the right standard.
However, I think people need to have a realistic view about the consequences of their actions. If students don't do their homework or meet deadlines, then that is going to adversely affect their academic performance sooner or later.
They will get left behind as other students who work harder will end up getting better grades, get selected for gifted programs and honor societies. I don't understand how any of this is a desirable outcome.
Well there's a lot of "chiefs" in schools now that weren't there before.
At one school I reported to the Math Curriculum Coach who reported to the Math Dept head who reported to the school Curriculum Administrator who reported to the Principal. This was middle school.
I was working from a grant for the school for 1 year for math remediation. There was no academic interaction with them; it was all strictly about the paperwork required for the grant money.
Another school I worked at had Curriculum Coaches at each school and then one at the District level when all the while the curriculum was posted on the state website and that's what we had to use.
There are now layers of people between the teacher and the principal.
Imagine what teachers could make in salary if you got rid of them all ? Because they didn't always be there.
There was a big scandal in my home district about 15-20 years ago due to some grant money they had. I don’t think they had “curriculum coaches”- but they were taking a lot of teachers out of the classroom to “mentor” other teachers and administer the grants. I think the superintendent did some creative accounting to make it seem like the grants were a windfall. After the grant finished, it turned out that the expenditures to hire all these non-classroom mentors and administrators far outstripped what they got in grants. I think every HS department had to have at least one mentor, and if the school was big, it could have 2. It seems like it was not unlikely that a large school with 2500 kids might have at least 10-15 “mentor” teachers. Granted, the district didn’t pay a ton at the time- these people were probably making $50-55K each per year, but that really adds up for a large district with many high schools.
When I was in Japan, they just had a democratic process for selecting various leads in the school. They’d just vote as a unit for department heads and grade heads and rotate out on a yearly basis. I am not sure that there was significant out of class time for this and they were all teaching positions.
However, I think people need to have a realistic view about the consequences of their actions. If students don't do their homework or meet deadlines, then that is going to adversely affect their academic performance sooner or later.
They will get left behind as other students who work harder will end up getting better grades, get selected for gifted programs and honor societies. I don't understand how any of this is a desirable outcome.
ONE more thing: (or more, sorry, like read and comprehend my last post lol)
Look people...."grades" or "systems of grading" are NOT, I say NOT, the problem or should be the central FOCUS !!!!
Grades are just one construct of EVALUATION. Evaluations MUST be done in order to establish hierarchies of EXCELLENCE. The problem is that much of our present society RESENTS the pursuit of excellence, and even comparison. HIGH Achievement is not culturally valued in many segments of our pluralistic society (even in adulthood) - Some people can't or don't wish to accept the reality that some students are better learners because they WANT to LEARN, or they have PARENTS at home who constantly TEACH and DISCIPLINE stupid, unacceptable, low-life behavior - PARENTS who are actively encouraging and rewarding ACCOMPLISHMENT generally have children who enjoy learning new things, whether making up their beds properly, doing a great job putting the dishes away in an orderly fashion, using utensils at the table correctly and praised for it, not running through the house with abandon, obeying house rules, taking care of their pets and praised for it/rewarded for it , etc etc
People....it starts in the home, with parents who read, read to their young children, speak clear Language (or two or three)
DISCIPLINE - on the little things - incremental home responsibilities
ROUTINE - practice, then practice some more, then get rewarded - not unlike Pavlov's Theory
TEACHERS can't do the work of parents, but parents can support teachers and education.
lol
Another small detail : FAITH....yes, I said it FAITH. I don't care which faith. Faith in something greater than "SELF" ...Ah, but this too is GONE from the school and sadly from the home and extended family. GO to church, synagogue, temple or a damn drum circle - don't care.
Don't get me started lol.....Try MUSIC EDUCATION, yes yes, it works on so many levels. I'm talking about classical to modern - not the crap, low-life dog-cussing, man-hating, woman-hating grundge, punk, ghettorap - teach the constructs of music theory, who wrote great music, who wrote bad music, how did they do it, why did they do it, why is it part of our lives even now.....yes yes, it's called BROADENING YOUR HORIZONS at a young age - it stimulates BRAIN activity and even emotions and even biological/physical responses.....
But no --- schools AND parents have lost their own way, They have abdicated common sense.
I'm 100% for letter grades and numerical grades - it teaches what is excellent and what is inferior....and why when thoroughly and transparently explained and utilized by not-so-dumb teachers.
One reality : yes, some children are smarter than others .....so what? some children in the same family are smarter and more dedicated than others - again, so what?
Also, face it : some children are destined to be boneheads who sometimes grow up to be adult boneheads - still others may become masters of the universe, drug dealers, murderers, thieves, or even those heralded "ball Players" who still can't read.
It’s not a dichotomy of do 6 hours of homework or watch TV and play video games for six hours. If you consider that most kids are in school 6-7 hours a day, expecting them to do a full six hours of homework is too much.
Six hours of homework for a high school student is about right. Perhaps 4 hours on a slow night. But that needs to be coupled with project work that takes a few weeks or longer and requires them to spend significant weekend time as well, so they learn time management.
Last edited by moguldreamer; 05-12-2023 at 10:49 AM..
Six hours of homework for a high school student is about right. Perhaps 4 hours on a slow night. But that needs to be coupled with project work that takes a few weeks or longer and requires them to spend significant weekend time as well, so they learn time management.
What job needs you to learn how to work 12+ hours a day on a consistent basis? I am aware of very few, namely some law jobs and medical residency. The latter is time limited.
Other jobs that would require a 12-hour day tend to do so only during certain times, such as when there is a big deadline coming up or something else was happening. For example, I remember when I worked for state government in a state that had a 2-month legislative session plus about 2-3 months prior to that of meetings, the legislative group would be working all the time those 4-5 months. For the other 7 months, they were basically sitting in their offices goofing around. That sort of schedule is far more indicative of the real world than asking CHILDREN to spend 12 hours a day on schoolwork, when there are other valuable activities they could be doing like being on a sports team, academic team, getting a part-time job, or even just enjoying kid activities. Why on earth would we ask kids, who are not mature yet, to do MORE work than adults?
What job needs you to learn how to work 12+ hours a day on a consistent basis? I am aware of very few, namely some law jobs and medical residency. The latter is time limited.
Other jobs that would require a 12-hour day tend to do so only during certain times, such as when there is a big deadline coming up or something else was happening. For example, I remember when I worked for state government in a state that had a 2-month legislative session plus about 2-3 months prior to that of meetings, the legislative group would be working all the time those 4-5 months. For the other 7 months, they were basically sitting in their offices goofing around. That sort of schedule is far more indicative of the real world than asking CHILDREN to spend 12 hours a day on schoolwork, when there are other valuable activities they could be doing like being on a sports team, academic team, getting a part-time job, or even just enjoying kid activities. Why on earth would we ask kids, who are not mature yet, to do MORE work than adults?
Right! Kids still need to be kids!
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