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The problem is obvious. You are obsessed and angry about US domestic politics that you are falling over easy for Russian propaganda.
Hey, I don't like Biden either, I voted for Trump. And I hate all the anti-white racism, the defund the police, borrowing of trillions, etc.
But I ask myself questions, like if the Ukrainians are really so bad why is every Democracy in the entire World supporting them?
Your question indicates that you do not not analyze matters with any degree of intellectual depth, and I’m not trying to be rude, just honest. Why is every democracy in the world supporting them you ask? First of all, you’re assuming that is actually true when you have absolutely no way to know that claim is accurate. In fact, the chances are great that it’s almost a virtual certainty it isn’t true based on the reality that not everyone agrees with everybody else on ANYTHING, EVER, and that is true almost always. So, right from the beginning, you have a 99% chance of being wrong.
Secondly, you are obviously misinformed on what is happening in this one area of Ukraine, while seeming to believe you know what is happening in every democracy in the world? It’s ridiculous. You don’t actually know anything … you just believe what you’ve been told. But believing something doesn’t mean it’s true.
I might ask you a similar question … why did so many democrats believe Donald Trump was a Russian agent, working with Putin to infiltrate the American government? As absurd as that was at face value, many, not all, actually believed that nonsense was true … and some may still believe it. But did that make it true? No, all it proved was how many idiots there really are in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
And if there really are NAZIS killing Russians in the Donbas, why did Putin wait EIGHT YEARS TO SAVE THEM? Why didn't he immediately offer them refugee in Russia? And is that why Russians are occupying parts of Georgia and Moldova - are they run by Nazis too. How convenient.
Again, you are making false assumptions. The questions you’re asking reveal how little you know about what is happening there now, let alone what has been happening over the past 8 years. There have been many efforts to address Ukrainian persecution of the peoples of the Donbas, including direct negotiations between Russia and Ukraine, resulting in the “Minsk Accords”. This has been an on going issue for years. You insinuate this is some fairytale I’m making up here, but it’s well documented, and even acknowledged by human rights organizations who have been working on behalf of these people to stop the persecution. Defensive militias have been organized to defend against these attacks, with basic military supples and hardware provided by Russia. So this is really a matter of your lack of knowledge.
Just to be clear, your insinuations suggest that these 10’s of thousands of people ought to be offered refugee status by Russia, and accept it, and just leave their homes, businesses, property and lives behind, just like that? What is wrong with you? That’s crazy thinking. That’s like saying the people of Arizona should just leave for Mexico, in response to Texas attacking them constantly! No, I would expect Arizonians to demand Texas stop attacking them, and fight back in defense of their homes, wouldn’t you? So, why would you expect the people of Eastern and Southern Ukraine not feel the same way about being attacked by their own people in the North, West and Central Ukraine? Why should they just leave? It’s their home.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative
And probably the biggest evidence of all, the one that is the most surprising to even the Russians, is how many of the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine are fighting on the side of Ukraine against Russia! Does that sound like they are really worried about Nazis?
And just how many are there? Have you a head count? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many Russians do you think is needed to prove your point? I’m of course being facetious… I’m sure there are Ukrainians that are of Russian decent, that are patriotically attached to Ukraine. That’s to be expected, when you are born in a country and your entire life is established there. Homes, jobs, families … of course they will be naturally inclined to support and defend their way of life.
The same is true everywhere, including here in the US. In fact, a good 50% of Americans don’t agree with what is happening with our own government, so, your point is really irrelevant. And it’s particularly inane, since Ukraine has not been too bashful to admit their rather stringent measures regarding conscription for military duty, ok? I think it is pretty effective to offer able bodied young men a choice … agree to fight the Russians, or get shot for treason … which one would you pick?
Look, you may believe whatever you want to believe. That’s your choice. But be clear, just because you believe something doesn’t make it true. I, and many others here have provided you a different version of the Ukraine scenario than the one you’ve previously assumed was true. You can ignore this new information, and continue to believe what you believe, or you can learn and grow, and become better informed. That’s up to you.
But know this, when you base your opinions on false information, your opinions cannot possibly be correct.
I’m going to leave you with a little exercise in logic … so you can give those brain muscles a little needed work out.
NATO is literally surrounding Russia. And so many of the dolts insist that this is necessary to defend all of these countries against the big bad brute that is Russia. After all, they claim that Russia is such a grave threat to the entire world, that we must have all of the NATO countries standing guard against big bad Russia who wants to dominate the world, and invade. That’s the story, right?
Yet, the same dolts sit here and blather on about how Ukraine is kicking Russia’s ass. How Russia is weak, and using antiquated WW II tanks, and are being pushed around by the Ukrainian military who will soon annihilate the Russians, and how the Russian economy will collapse, and how the people will revolt and drive Putin from power. LOL.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say how weak Russia is, and how Ukraine is man handling Russian forces, and also say you need 30 NATO countries, and 120 NATO military bases surrounding Russia to defend all of Europe and the free world against this monstrous Russian threat. LOL. ITS LAUGHABLE. It makes no sense at all.
Basic common sense demands that there is an “either or” situation. Either Russia is such a huge and powerful threat requiring 30 countries to be lined up against them to thwart their quest for world domination, or they are this paper tiger that Ukraine is tossing around like a skinny school girl. But it can’t be both.
Now go do some mental bench presses with those two ideas, and tell us what you wind up with.
Your spin on every aspect of the conflict is interesting.
-Ukraine just shelling and attacking Donbass, no mention as to a Russian supported civil war...nope, just Ukraine shelling Donbass apparently just to kill Russians.
-It's Ukraine\the wests fault for the war, no mention of Russia invading...spin as if Russia is the victim in all this.
-No mention of the grab of the Crimea.
-I've also enjoyed all the threats of nuclear war and how that too is everybody elses fault for not just surrendering and thus creating a threat of nuclear war.
I'll be sure to tip my server after this comedy routine...if the Whitehouse needs a new press secretary you should apply.
Wish I could rep you again!
I wonder what they will say when Russia comes after Alaska - just give it to them, it's part of their geosphere, and they have nukes! Then, when they come for the PNW - well, the Russians in the PNW had their feelings hurt by the others, and now they want to belong to Russia - let's just give it to them, because...they have nukes!
Your spin on every aspect of the conflict is interesting.
-Ukraine just shelling and attacking Donbass, no mention as to a Russian supported civil war...nope, just Ukraine shelling Donbass apparently just to kill Russians.
-It's Ukraine\the wests fault for the war, no mention of Russia invading...spin as if Russia is the victim in all this.
-No mention of the grab of the Crimea.
-I've also enjoyed all the threats of nuclear war and how that too is everybody elses fault for not just surrendering and thus creating a threat of nuclear war.
I'll be sure to tip my server after this comedy routine...if the Whitehouse needs a new press secretary you should apply.
Foreign Affairs had a well-written article by John Mearsheimer back in 2014. I recommend it - if you knew what Mearsheimer had said then, you'd refrain from writing what you just wrote.
Your question indicates that you do not not analyze matters with any degree of intellectual depth, and I’m not trying to be rude, just honest. Why is every democracy in the world supporting them you ask? First of all, you’re assuming that is actually true when you have absolutely no way to know that claim is accurate. In fact, the chances are great that it’s almost a virtual certainty it isn’t true based on the reality that not everyone agrees with everybody else on ANYTHING, EVER, and that is true almost always. So, right from the beginning, you have a 99% chance of being wrong.
Secondly, you are obviously misinformed on what is happening in this one area of Ukraine, while seeming to believe you know what is happening in every democracy in the world? It’s ridiculous. You don’t actually know anything … you just believe what you’ve been told. But believing something doesn’t mean it’s true.
I might ask you a similar question … why did so many democrats believe Donald Trump was a Russian agent, working with Putin to infiltrate the American government? As absurd as that was at face value, many, not all, actually believed that nonsense was true … and some may still believe it. But did that make it true? No, all it proved was how many idiots there really are in this country.
Again, you are making false assumptions. The questions you’re asking reveal how little you know about what is happening there now, let alone what has been happening over the past 8 years. There have been many efforts to address Ukrainian persecution of the peoples of the Donbas, including direct negotiations between Russia and Ukraine, resulting in the “Minsk Accords”. This has been an on going issue for years. You insinuate this is some fairytale I’m making up here, but it’s well documented, and even acknowledged by human rights organizations who have been working on behalf of these people to stop the persecution. Defensive militias have been organized to defend against these attacks, with basic military supples and hardware provided by Russia. So this is really a matter of your lack of knowledge.
Just to be clear, your insinuations suggest that these 10’s of thousands of people ought to be offered refugee status by Russia, and accept it, and just leave their homes, businesses, property and lives behind, just like that? What is wrong with you? That’s crazy thinking. That’s like saying the people of Arizona should just leave for Mexico, in response to Texas attacking them constantly! No, I would expect Arizonians to demand Texas stop attacking them, and fight back in defense of their homes, wouldn’t you? So, why would you expect the people of Eastern and Southern Ukraine not feel the same way about being attacked by their own people in the North, West and Central Ukraine? Why should they just leave? It’s their home.
And just how many are there? Have you a head count? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? How many Russians do you think is needed to prove your point? I’m of course being facetious… I’m sure there are Ukrainians that are of Russian decent, that are patriotically attached to Ukraine. That’s to be expected, when you are born in a country and your entire life is established there. Homes, jobs, families … of course they will be naturally inclined to support and defend their way of life.
The same is true everywhere, including here in the US. In fact, a good 50% of Americans don’t agree with what is happening with our own government, so, your point is really irrelevant. And it’s particularly inane, since Ukraine has not been too bashful to admit their rather stringent measures regarding conscription for military duty, ok? I think it is pretty effective to offer able bodied young men a choice … agree to fight the Russians, or get shot for treason … which one would you pick?
Look, you may believe whatever you want to believe. That’s your choice. But be clear, just because you believe something doesn’t make it true. I, and many others here have provided you a different version of the Ukraine scenario than the one you’ve previously assumed was true. You can ignore this new information, and continue to believe what you believe, or you can learn and grow, and become better informed. That’s up to you.
But know this, when you base your opinions on false information, your opinions cannot possibly be correct.
I’m going to leave you with a little exercise in logic … so you can give those brain muscles a little needed work out.
NATO is literally surrounding Russia. And so many of the dolts insist that this is necessary to defend all of these countries against the big bad brute that is Russia. After all, they claim that Russia is such a grave threat to the entire world, that we must have all of the NATO countries standing guard against big bad Russia who wants to dominate the world, and invade. That’s the story, right?
Yet, the same dolts sit here and blather on about how Ukraine is kicking Russia’s ass. How Russia is weak, and using antiquated WW II tanks, and are being pushed around by the Ukrainian military who will soon annihilate the Russians, and how the Russian economy will collapse, and how the people will revolt and drive Putin from power. LOL.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say how weak Russia is, and how Ukraine is man handling Russian forces, and also say you need 30 NATO countries, and 120 NATO military bases surrounding Russia to defend all of Europe and the free world against this monstrous Russian threat. LOL. ITS LAUGHABLE. It makes no sense at all.
Basic common sense demands that there is an “either or” situation. Either Russia is such a huge and powerful threat requiring 30 countries to be lined up against them to thwart their quest for world domination, or they are this paper tiger that Ukraine is tossing around like a skinny school girl. But it can’t be both.
Now go do some mental bench presses with those two ideas, and tell us what you wind up with.
This is another excellent post, but what I want to highlight here are the Minsk Agreements.
Let it be known to all of you who mock the idea that Ukraine committed aggression against Donbass Russians; who think Ukraine entering NATO is no big deal; that Russia is losing this war/will lose... etc.
The Minsk Agreements had the participation of France and Germany.
Had the Minsk Agreements been followed as written - this includes Ukraine under Zelensky - Donbass would have remained under Ukrainian geopolitical administration and control. But Ukrainian compliance would have meant a cessation of the years-long Ukrainian shelling of the Donbass Russians.
Given a choice, what did Kiev opt for?
Ukraine did not follow the Minsk Agreements.
You can all continue with your views. We are all entitled to them. But ignoring facts and factors and circumstances which challenge your viewpoints? Again, that's your decision. But if you then write shallow and factually incorrect posts while thinking you're aware of the facts, it's not posters like myself or others whose views align with mine who are actually being mocked.
Russia's problem is that they are a Paper Tiger. Prior to the invasion analyst had no idea the degree of how hallowed out the Russian Military has become. They marketed themselves as a great modern army but in reality they have a hallowed out incompetent outdated military command structure. This is the product of a kleptocracy...Russia has demonstrated to the world the acute corruption that comes with these regimes. Combine this with sanctions, Russia no longer has access to western parts to produce advanced weapons like cruise missiles of which currently 50% are being shot down and they stupidly utilize on civilian infrastructure rather than battlefield targets...these weapons cannot be replaced. Now the west is rushing in sophisticated air defense systems so the percentage of successful strikes is only going to go down. They do not have the capacity to destroy Ukraine's infrastructure as a result. They have WMD's and if they decide to use those...the world WILL pounce.
And here is the real problem...they don't have an army. They don't have the logistics to process their "mobilization"
Russian incompetence continues to take its toll on mobilized personnel before they ever reach the front lines, likely exacerbating already-low morale. https://isw.pub/RusCampaignOct13
New: Public reports of the first deaths of ill-prepared mobilized #Russian troops in #Ukraine have sparked renewed criticism of the Russian military command as the #Kremlin struggles to message itself out of the reality of mobilization & military failures. https://isw.pub/RusCampaignOct13
Ukraine has developed a highly effective NCO Command structure...the have been under total mobilization for 8 months and now have battle hardened crack units trained in both old Soviet and Western weapons. They are seizing the initiative and retaking their land...regrouping...shoring up their logistics...then going back on the offensive....ON THEIR OWN LAND. They will continue to press this attack into the occupied territories and Russia WILL LOSE its coveted land bridge. The real big question is under these conditions especially as we enter winter...will Russian forces inside Ukraine Mutiny??
1) Ukraine is an illegitimate government from a US-backed coup where a third of the population isn't Ukrainian. Ukrainians have never been more than 25% of the population of Crimea, ever. Russians are the overwhelming majority of Crimea and opinion polls in Crimea favored reunification with Russia even before the 2014 coup(even by the majority of ethnic-Ukrainians).
2) Whatever you expect of Russia, you need to ask yourself whether America would allow it if the shoe was on the other foot. Would America allow Russian Nuclear missiles in Toronto and Montreal, aimed at Washington and New York? What if the Canadian government had just been overthrown by the truckers which caused a Civil War?
3) The entire point of expanding NATO east is to provoke Russia. Even the Ukrainians admitted as much. And no, NATO is not a purely defensive alliance.
NATO is not a defensive military alliance. It began as such, but after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, it’s purpose to defend against Soviet expansion disappeared. When the threat disappears, there is no longer a need for the deterrent.
The West double crossed the Russians after the breakup of the Soviet Union, and the disbanding of the Warsaw Pact alliance. The west assured the Russians that NATO would not expand eastward into the former Soviet satellite states surrounding Russia, yet proceeded to do precisely that. Over the past 30 years, Russia has been literally surrounded, and year after year, decade after decade, Russia has engaged in endless efforts to establish a dialog and a framework for assuring the security of Russia and the bordering nations formerly a part of the Soviet empire, but their security concerns have been ignored.
The Russians have seen the western backed overthrow of several Russian friendly governments, which were replaced with pro-west, anti-Russia regimes. They’ve seen NATO continue to expand, and put military installations in that have offensive capability, which Russia rightfully views as a security threat.
And it’s ludicrous for the west to dismiss those concerns as illegitimate, when the very leaders of these western nations openly call Russia their number one enemy, as the United States has insisted for years!
The hypocrisy and double talk is mind boggling. And this is exemplified by the fact that you will be immediately attacked and denounced as a Russian apologist, if you dare say one positive thing about Russia, ever.
How is this extreme anti-Russian posture ever going to create a cooperative environment, let alone lead to peace?
The truth is, Russia wants to establish a cooperative, lasting, and mutually beneficial relationship with Europe and the United States, but the powers that be profit more from its militaristic escapades than from peace. Therefore, they require a boogie man, not a cooperative partner. And Russia has served their purpose as a useful and profitable boogie man for so long, they aren’t willing to give that up, therefore Russia will remain the boogie man they need to justify their Trillions of dollars of profits from endless conflicts and war.
Throughout history, the war profiteers have always needed a boogie man. If one doesn’t show up, they create one. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Hussein, Qaddafi, Assad, there are always boogie men to justify endless conflict, because there is a lot more profit from war, than from peace.
It’s just like our “healthcare” system. It makes no money from good health, and all of its profits from sickness. So, which of the two do you think the system prefers? Sickness, or good health?
The answer is obvious, yet in spite of this blatant conflict of interest, everyone thinks that the best way to good health is listening to the advice of those who profit from illness, and taking the drugs they offer.
It’s the upside down world we live in. And few even notice.
Foreign Affairs had a well-written article by John Mearsheimer back in 2014. I recommend it - if you knew what Mearsheimer had said then, you'd refrain from writing what you just wrote.
I read an article in a publication many years ago that said something which if you knew you'd completely agree with me about.
As such, I'm glad I've changed your mind with that information.
It’s a sick joke, and they’ll get what’s coming to them eventually, in that very hot place they are sure to land in. And the idiots who defend and enable these psychopaths and tyrants will get what they deserve too.
I read an article in a publication many years ago that said something which if you knew you'd completely agree with me about.
As such, I'm glad I've changed your mind with that information.
Mearsheimer is quite knowledeable about Ukraine. That's not something I would say about posters who think Russia has no real geostrategic interest in keeping Ukraine out of NATO.
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