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View Poll Results: Do you support giving Ukraine F-16s
Yes 209 40.04%
No 263 50.38%
Unsure 50 9.58%
Voters: 522. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-06-2022, 06:52 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
NATO's not going to get involved as a group. Individual NATO countries have gotten involved, as far as sending equipment, but so have non-NATO members (e.g. Sweden, not sure about Finland).

Besides, Russia already has reduced cities to rubble, or parts of cities. Anyway, the buzz is, that Biden's trying to talk Z into facing the fact, that giving up some territory will be necessary to end the war. But then the question will be: how much territory?

And the tough pill to swallow there, is, that the Donbas and Crimea have the vast majority of Ukraines natural gas recourses, and even some oil. And coal; I think I read the Donbas is rich in coal.

So why should Ukraine give up its richest land? And what kind of precedent will that set for Russia? The Baltic States are appalled that such a thing would even be considered. One doesn't negotiate with, and give up precious resource to, a bully. It would set a very dangerous precedent.

OTOH, what alternative is there?
Time will tell what alternatives there are for both sides.

I can't see Ukraine giving up the south unless they just get totally exhausted and/or lose support from the west.

I can't see Putin quitting if he loses Crimea.
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Old 06-06-2022, 06:55 PM
bu2
 
24,314 posts, read 15,150,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy Anne View Post
Ukraine will not win. Russia destroys a lot of weapons that are being sent in. Zelensky the leech and bottomless money grubber is not satisfied with what he's given. I think he's a fraud, and scammer. Russia will leave when they are good and ready. Zelensky can whine and moan all he wants, pose with troops in his green T shirt, but he gets nowhere near the respect Putin has when it comes to handling the west. I admire his standing up to Washington. Somebody had to do it. People like Austin, Blinken, and Biden do not care about Americans, and our plights. We are bending over, and "giving till it hurts" for their obsessions with Ukraine and $$$$ making money. Putin is a genius about the gas for rubles. Smart move. He's nobody's victim when it comes to "Western Demands" (do as we dictate or else). No one is happy about what is happening to the Ukranian people, but all of this could have been avoided had NATO not jerked Russia around for years. I am not paid by the Kremlin. I follow Jackson Hinkle, Richard Medhurst, and The New Atlas on youtube. They make more sense than Austin, Biden, Blinken and other shills for the military Industrial Complex. Wake UP Americans, and stop grabbing your ankles for these buffoons.
Nobody in the west respects Putin. They think he's a megalomaniac madman. They may fear him, but don't respect him.
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Old 06-06-2022, 07:04 PM
 
79,383 posts, read 61,515,362 times
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*shrug* every time Russia unleashes a barrage of threats about WW3....it tells me everything I need to know about how things are going.

Anyone want to buy some high end Russian military equipment? Buehler? Buehler? Buehler?

Last edited by Mathguy; 06-06-2022 at 07:12 PM..
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Old 06-06-2022, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,375 posts, read 2,943,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Nobody in the west respects Putin. They think he's a megalomaniac madman. They may fear him, but don't respect him.
That is a mistake that needs to be rectified sooner rather than later. Putin is not just an old guy (which is respectable in its own right), he's a leader of a fairly big and fairly important country.
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Old 06-06-2022, 07:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brrabbit View Post
That is a mistake that needs to be rectified sooner rather than later. Putin is not just an old guy (which is respectable in its own right), he's a leader of a fairly big and fairly important country.
They have nukes and a lot of raw resouces and yes a lot of territory.

On the other hand, they've slid greatly over the years and their GDP is lower than several US states.

Personally, I wish that long ago some sort of reconciliation had occurred between Russia and the rest of Europe, but it didn't.

I respect and appreciate the Russian people but they've frankly never recovered from the legacy of Stalin imo. That's a pretty raw deal after all they sacrificed in WW2 (and in earlier wars like against Napolean etc.)

So, the future of Russia looks to be partnering with China, India etc. as a source of raw materials which is a shame. They have a rich history of education and skilled engineers and scientists but like other countries that is more of an outflow item.
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Old 06-06-2022, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee, WI
3,375 posts, read 2,943,759 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
They have nukes and a lot of raw resouces and yes a lot of territory.

On the other hand, they've slid greatly over the years and their GDP is lower than several US states.

Personally, I wish that long ago some sort of reconciliation had occurred between Russia and the rest of Europe, but it didn't.

I respect and appreciate the Russian people but they've frankly never recovered from the legacy of Stalin imo. That's a pretty raw deal after all they sacrificed in WW2 (and in earlier wars like against Napolean etc.)

So, the future of Russia looks to be partnering with China, India etc. as a source of raw materials which is a shame. They have a rich history of education and skilled engineers and scientists but like other countries that is more of an outflow item.
As I say, it's somewhat important country, and its leader has to be treated with reasonable respect. Similar to what is given to Joe Biden, no matter what you think about his family business affairs.


PS Joseph Stalin is probably the best Tsar that could happen to Russia in 20th century.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
7,817 posts, read 2,769,294 times
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Todays Update

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-june-6

Quote:
The nature of urban combat in Severodonetsk is likely obfuscating reports of control of terrain within the city, though Russian forces likely retain control over much of the city.

Head of the Luhansk Regional State Administration Serhiy Haidai claimed on June 5 that Ukrainian forces managed to retake large parts of Severodonetsk and push Russian forces to the outskirts of the city during successful urban counterattacks.[1] Ukrainian journalist Yuri Butusov, however, denied Haidai’s claims on June 5 and claimed that Ukrainian forces only control the Azot industrial sector of Severodonetsk. Haidai amended his claims on June 6 and reported that the situation in Severodonetsk has deteriorated significantly, adding that Ukrainian forces were indeed fighting within the Azot industrial site on June 6.[2] The reason for Haidai and Butusov’s conflicting reports is unclear, and heavy urban fighting is ongoing in the city.

Ukrainian naval forces are challenging Russian dominance over the northwestern part of the Black Sea and claimed to be preventing Russian warships from operating close to the shoreline.
Key Takeaways

Quote:
Russian forces likely retain control over most of Severodonetsk as of June 6, though the exact situation in the city remains unclear. Control of terrain is likely changing hands frequently.

Russian forces in the Izyum area did not make any confirmed advances, while forces advancing west from Lyman secured minor gains.

Russian forces continued unsuccessful attempts to sever Ukrainian lines of communication northeast of Bakhmut.

Limited and localized Ukrainian counterattacks on June 5 forced Russian troops to focus on holding defensive lines north of Kharkiv City on June 6.

Russian occupation authorities are advancing efforts to issue Russian passports to Ukrainian citizens and cement their control over occupied territories.

The Ukrainian Navy claimed to have pushed the Russian Black Sea Fleet more than 100 km from the Ukrainian coast, likely to reduce the pressure of the Russian blockade on Ukraine’s southern ports.
Activity in Russian-occupied Areas

Quote:
Occupation authorities of the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) are using the trials of three foreign mercenaries who were captured fighting for Ukraine to support Kremlin information campaigns.[32] Russian war reporter Evgeny Podubbny stated that the DNR Prosecutor General’s Office is trying British nationals Sean Pinner and Aiden Aslin and Moroccan national Saadun Brahim for the “commission of a crime by a group of persons,” “forcible seizure of power or forcible retention of power,” “mercenary activity,” and “training for the purpose of carrying out terrorist activities.”[33] The DNR Prosecutor General’s Office is reportedly seeking the death penalty for all three.[34] These trials are likely a response to recent (legitimate) Ukrainian war crimes trials of Russian servicemen and an attempt to consolidate informational control over the political environment in the DNR to support Kremlin narratives of a Western plot to use mercenaries to destroy the DNR and LNR, a key Kremlin disinformation campaign to justify the war.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:03 PM
bu2
 
24,314 posts, read 15,150,265 times
Reputation: 13178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
They have nukes and a lot of raw resouces and yes a lot of territory.

On the other hand, they've slid greatly over the years and their GDP is lower than several US states.

Personally, I wish that long ago some sort of reconciliation had occurred between Russia and the rest of Europe, but it didn't.

I respect and appreciate the Russian people but they've frankly never recovered from the legacy of Stalin imo. That's a pretty raw deal after all they sacrificed in WW2 (and in earlier wars like against Napolean etc.)

So, the future of Russia looks to be partnering with China, India etc. as a source of raw materials which is a shame. They have a rich history of education and skilled engineers and scientists but like other countries that is more of an outflow item.
Well it was the mishandled privatizations of the 90s, leaving lots poor and a number of powerful billionaires. It lead them to follow a strongman type like Putin. Things got better (whether because of rising oil prices or his policies is irrelevant) and so they are loyal to him. The economic disasters of the 90s discredited the liberals, especially outside Moscow and St. Petersburg.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:09 PM
bu2
 
24,314 posts, read 15,150,265 times
Reputation: 13178
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBoy64 View Post
Todays Update

https://www.understandingwar.org/bac...essment-june-6



Key Takeaways



Activity in Russian-occupied Areas
The one country I would not go out of my way to tick off would be the UK. Could be a very bad mistake by the Donetsk puppet state to murder those British mercenaries.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:10 PM
 
26,970 posts, read 22,919,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB365 View Post
Ukraine doesn't have the money you say....

But guess who does...
.(and it ain't Russia)....

The West has that kind of money...peanuts for the West...

Sure...Putin wants to speedup the "war"....because he is running out of
equipment...ammo....missiles....he doesn't have a bottomless supply...
a few more months and he is toast

I am the one who keeps on saying that it's the West that was preparing this war since 2014, all while accusing Russia of aggression.

And by Russia I mean Russia, not "Putin" or Shmutin, because anyone short of serving directly American interests a la Yeltsin style in Moscow would be accused of "aggression" and any kind of *sins* by certain circles in Washington. I would want to say "left" circles for the most part, but I am aware of existence of John McCain types as well.
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