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Old 04-19-2008, 12:24 PM
 
3,255 posts, read 5,088,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexianPatriot View Post
The day government provides for all of my needs is the day I will quit working. I encourage all hard working Americans to do the same to put an end to the cult of collectivism.
Not possible. If the government provided for all your needs, you would obviously not need to work, however, if we were not basically a nation of workers in collective or in competition, there would be no resources or ability to meet your needs. Collectivism does not mean lack of work, it means working for common goals for a community.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:45 PM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,519,409 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexianPatriot View Post
The day government provides for all of my needs is the day I will quit working. I encourage all hard working Americans to do the same to put an end to the cult of collectivism.
Very sensible and level-headed idea...
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,012 posts, read 7,885,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Very sensible and level-headed idea...
No incentive to work. If the government will provide for my healthcare, housing, education, transportation, and pay me welfare on top of that, what incentive is there for me to go out and find a job?

Better yet, instead of relying on the government to be my provider, I'd probably just stop paying taxes to the slave driving bureaucracy. Come and take it fascists. God doesn't ask for more than 10% and I will not bow down to the alter of government bureaucracy and fascism.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Your mind
2,935 posts, read 5,005,550 times
Reputation: 604
So... you're saying that if you already have a job that pays for your healthcare, housing, education, transportation, and just a little cash left over, there's no incentive whatsoever to get a higher paying job if it's available? If that's the case why is anyone motivated to be a doctor? Why don't they all just be plumbers or truckers?
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,922 posts, read 8,080,597 times
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Collectivism doesn't ever seem to work long term because too many people end up cheating. Of course a lot of people end up cheating under capitalism too, so it's not any panacea.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:13 PM
 
3,210 posts, read 4,623,245 times
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Collectivism can work as long as it's towards a common goal. The US Military is a good example, with the goal to win a war. Collective tribes did it during times of war and famine. The problem is as a general societal state, it does more harm than good. People have an intrensic human right to want more for themselves and to be allowed to work for what they want. The Neo-Cons in both Britian and America do not subscribe to Capitalistic free-markets so much as a corporate welfare style state where risk and labor is suppressed in return for higher returns for their lobbyist friends. This is actually a form of Socialism practiced earlier under Hitler called "National Socialism". The Thrid Reich, USSR, China, EU welfare states, and Neo-con UK/US all practice some form of socialism. Pure Capitalism only existed during the Victorian Age of Britian and America, along with the US between 1945 and 1970.


Both the Victorian and Guilded ages get a seriously bad rap. Yes, poverty was rampant, but living standards were beginning to increase even before FDR. Living standards only improve when the demand for Labor begins to outstrip supply. This happened immedatley after WWII in America and Europe and hence were the "Golden Age". After the 1970s, the demand for labor contracted in the West due to outsourcing and technological changes. Eventually, when capitalism envelopes the world, the demand for labor will begin to increase and instead of just a prosperous US/UK/EU, it will be a prosperous world. As the dollar drops, manufacturing comes back. US still manufactures alot of stuff, just not in expensive-ass union/blue states.


Before someone throws out the "China" boogeyman, note that they do not float their currency and therefore are manipulating the game. This is not "Capitalism" but "National Socialism".
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,012 posts, read 7,885,842 times
Reputation: 5698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
Collectivism can work as long as it's towards a common goal. The US Military is a good example, with the goal to win a war. Collective tribes did it during times of war and famine. The problem is as a general societal state, it does more harm than good. People have an intrensic human right to want more for themselves and to be allowed to work for what they want. The Neo-Cons in both Britian and America do not subscribe to Capitalistic free-markets so much as a corporate welfare style state where risk and labor is suppressed in return for higher returns for their lobbyist friends. This is actually a form of Socialism practiced earlier under Hitler called "National Socialism". The Thrid Reich, USSR, China, EU welfare states, and Neo-con UK/US all practice some form of socialism. Pure Capitalism only existed during the Victorian Age of Britian and America, along with the US between 1945 and 1970.


Both the Victorian and Guilded ages get a seriously bad rap. Yes, poverty was rampant, but living standards were beginning to increase even before FDR. Living standards only improve when the demand for Labor begins to outstrip supply. This happened immedatley after WWII in America and Europe and hence were the "Golden Age". After the 1970s, the demand for labor contracted in the West due to outsourcing and technological changes. Eventually, when capitalism envelopes the world, the demand for labor will begin to increase and instead of just a prosperous US/UK/EU, it will be a prosperous world. As the dollar drops, manufacturing comes back. US still manufactures alot of stuff, just not in expensive-ass union/blue states.


Before someone throws out the "China" boogeyman, note that they do not float their currency and therefore are manipulating the game. This is not "Capitalism" but "National Socialism".
All the more reason to stop fueling the beast with our tax dollars. Eventually countries will stop lending and if we stop feeding the troll, eventually they'd have to cut spending and pay their debts.

The real problem with globalization is that it takes to for developing countries to rise up to the standard of living we are at now. Without a tariff on cheaply produced imports, we will continue to cut jobs here. I believe that loss of jobs is ultimately a heavier price to pay than the benefits we get from cheaper consumer goods and the profits of stock holders. Not to mention the various free trade agreements the United States is in right now limits our sovereingty to make individual decisions about what items enter the US freely and what items don't. I'm totally comitted to free market capitalism, but it is hard for me to balance me stance with complete free maket globalization and protecting American interests at home.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,922 posts, read 8,080,597 times
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One of the necessary preconditions for capitalism is free trade. Try reading Adam Smith.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:41 PM
 
28,895 posts, read 54,251,333 times
Reputation: 46687
Expecting collectivism to work is akin to expecting Santa Claus to deliver presents on Christmas Eve. It's a childlike faith, one that very quickly succumbs to reality.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,012 posts, read 7,885,842 times
Reputation: 5698
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
One of the necessary preconditions for capitalism is free trade. Try reading Adam Smith.
perhaps if our own economy wasn't so regulated, free trade would benefit America. as it stands now, we have far too many regulations on industry to compete with developing nations. either cut some slack on the regulations within our own country or impose tariffs on imports.
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