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Once it's privatized, it's a bottom-line driven, market-based scheme. And as soon as something like that is placed into the hands of small, medium and large corporations, it's subject to inequity, mismanagement and breaches of ethics--all with no oversight from the people. Education is a centuries-old institution, relied upon by the masses of society to better itself.
Accountability
Who would corporate-owned schools first be accountable to ... parents, students or shareholders?
Geographical Coverage
Where would corporate-owned schools locate themselves ... in thriving, business-friendly locales, blue-collar working class neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods? And if there was no school that served a portion of a community, how would those children get to school?
Costs
The average cost of attendance to a corporate-owned school in my area is about $15,000 a year. I can't afford that for my school-aged kids, and I make way more than the median national salary. Since government's out of the picture, who can attends school ... those who can best afford it? And about that transporation ... should those parents tack on the cost of busses, cabs, vanpools?
Contrary to contemporary belief, the private sector isn't always the best way to go.
Gee, I don't know, you could always educate your own kids.
Private schools charge a buttload of money because it's expensive to maintain the fancy facilities their upper-crust clientele expects, (and because the high costs keep out the riff-raff!) but there is nothing inherently more educational about having hardwood floors and china in the lunchroom than linoleum at the kitchen counter.
...all of the arguments you all made were down right offensive. You are basically saying "All Poor people are at extreme disadvantages, not because they are poor, but because they are stupid"
Sadly, they don't even realize that their arguments are saying that.
I find these arguments extremely offensive, as well!
From my observations, you do not deal in facts, you deal in right-wing gibberish. How do you refute, for instance, the fact that Whitney Young HS in the South-side of Chicago is and always has been a public school, not a private school? As for its being "attended by the children of the destitute, poor, single mothers, of america", here is a picture of the school's boys volleyball team...
They aren't anomalies at all. Whitney Young HS is a college-prep only, by admission only, high school. It accepts and educates only Chicago's most academically advanced students. 100% of its graduates go on to college.
What failure was that again?
You are one of the most dishonest posters to debate with. Yea, I said it! You never deal in fact you make up things as you go. In three seconds of looking up the school. I was able to find the demographics.
Now, let me think why would someone post a picture of only the swim team and vollyball team as if that is somehow indicitive of the entire student body when the school post its diversity information on a website. Oh, that's right, someone who cannot accept fact and is dishonest in the way they attempt to present information. The school is more than 82% minority and most of the children do not come from affluent families yet the school is one of the best high schools in the country private or public, the average ACT score is 26.2, which places it in the 99th percentile, and 100% of the children go on to attend a 4-year college.
Saganista, what about Dunbar High School in Washington DC in the late 1880's through 1950 that sent 60 blacks to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Wellesley, Penn and various other Ivy League schools. How would your liberal litmus test hold up against those students. Who succeeded without any crutches, without tons of money, but out performed almost every high school in Washington DC black and white on almost a consistent 50 year basis? I noticed you omitted that information for your argument.--(I only point this out because you're from Wash DC)
Look, at this point with your posting dishonest information i'm no longer willing to debate you. I'll kindly drop out and agree disagree. When you come to the board willing to debate with some professionalism and honesty i'll engage you but until that happens i will not respond.
You can call republican this and republican that, but that shows how short shighted you are on many topics and how this bottled thinking leaves you as more of a regressive than a "progressive." If your only way to defend an argument is to start with republican gibberish that is really weak.
Anyone that is to flippant to see that we already have a capitalist driven education system, that is tops in the world operating in America is nuts! HELLO JUST LOOK AT OUR COLLEGE SYSTEM?
How do you think our American College Education system functions. It utilizes a capitalistic demand and supply type of market and it is the best in the world. Take on that argument! Why couldn't we implement that same sort of system in elementary school, middle school, and high school?
When I left high school for college I had an abundance of choices and you know what that made all the difference. I would have hated to be stuck in one direction or only given limited opportunities to pursue my education, so if you're actually for individual freedoms you should be supporting the right to choice in education, otherwise you're nothing more than a citizens, that is willing to support big Authoritarian Government and you're more than happy with the Government Controling every facet of your life!
If this is you North Korea, Cuba, and various Islamic Countires would be glad to have you as citizens.
Last edited by truthhurts; 02-14-2008 at 02:59 PM..
Once it's privatized, it's a bottom-line driven, market-based scheme. And as soon as something like that is placed into the hands of small, medium and large corporations, it's subject to inequity, mismanagement and breaches of ethics--all with no oversight from the people. Education is a centuries-old institution, relied upon by the masses of society to better itself.
Accountability
Who would corporate-owned schools first be accountable to ... parents, students or shareholders?
Geographical Coverage
Where would corporate-owned schools locate themselves ... in thriving, business-friendly locales, blue-collar working class neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods? And if there was no school that served a portion of a community, how would those children get to school?
Costs
The average cost of attendance to a corporate-owned school in my area is about $15,000 a year. I can't afford that for my school-aged kids, and I make way more than the median national salary. Since government's out of the picture, who can attends school ... those who can best afford it? And about that transporation ... should those parents tack on the cost of busses, cabs, vanpools?
Contrary to contemporary belief, the private sector isn't always the best way to go.
This argument is well laid out and easy to tackle and disagree with, because of the format. I'm saying this is a good thing .
Anyway, although you and I tend to agree more often than not Backfist, i'm going to have to strongly disagree with your points.
Accountability; is always consumer driven. A corporation does not make profits if consumers do not believe in its service. This will work the same way in a privitized system. Corporations will be soley concerned with providing great schools at the risk of losing their most prized possesion, students! They will be accountabile to whatever states mandate and decide to regulate. In fact if states wanted to make this interesting, they could force corporations to appoint a few parental liasons to the board. I'm not sure why all of you all think that a privatized school system will not fall under some sort of state guidelines and regulations. It would be no different then our current college system.
Geographical Coverage
Corporations would place themselves in strategically located areas that have their primary resource whether it is elementary pupils, middle school pupils, or high school pupils. It would be the same way that current businesses operate. There would be companies that cater to inner cities and rurual areas, there would be companies that cater to suburban and metro areas. There would be companies that cater to a wide demographic and attempt to provide service to all places. There would be schools that specialize in math, art, technology, reading, spanish, etc, but they would still all have to meet state regulations and basic teaching guidlines or accredations.The school that is the most successful will have the best chance at expanding and offering its service in other districts and locations. Schools that fail will ultimately be run out of town.
Cost
I'm not sure what corporate owned schools you have in your area, but to my knowledge University of Phoenix and ITT Technical Institute do not operate elementary schools, but they do in your area? Anyway if you're referring to Private or Boarding Schools, those are non-profit religious denominated, so you're not comparing like properties. I'm sure as with most areas there's a plethora of private school locations that offer varying degrees of tuition and cost, so to say that all relgious denomintated schools are expensive is not remotely true.
Contrary to popular belief you're right its not always the best way to go, but its always the most efficent at weeding out bad ideas. If privatization is such a bad idea our college system would be failing miserable in educating the future leaders of tomorrow and it currently is ranked the best in the world, so we already have an example of why it would not fail miserably.
Our current public school system keeps poor kids in poor schools. It keeps the riff-raff out of schools with high acedemic standards. Public schooling promotes segregation. I would go into it deeper but then I would be sitting here all day, and I don't want carple tunnel, plus I'm sure by now people are debating around in circles, wish I would have seen this one earlier.
Quick Point here. TO THE JERK THAT JUST POSTED AND FLAMED ME!
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE MY POINT EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT OF CHOICE AND DO NOT READ IT! DO NOT SIT HERE AND FLAME ME BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH ME!!! IF YOU DISAGREE STATE YOUR ARGUMENT ON THE FORUM AND I"LL RESPOND TO IT! DON"T GO AROUND FLAMING ME!
Any privatized school system would aggravate and enlarge the current inequality of educational funding/standards between the children of poor/middle-class/wealthy parents, over the long term decreasing income mobility and also increasing the amount of religious indoctrination. Instead of trying to go back to something closer to the 1800's, why not look at the most successful public school systems in the world, whatever they are, and take some lessons from what they're doing? We don't need kids going to "McDonald's schools."
Ok, do me a favor. Compare the educational level of the 1800's schools to the same level of educational institutions today. Let me know what you find out.
Better yet, why don't you go pick up some of Noah Websters course books from the 1700's and up. Tell me if YOU could even answer 1/2 the content in those books at grammar school level. You might just find that our educational systems are quite a bit worse than they used to be.
Our current public school system keeps poor kids in poor schools. It keeps the riff-raff out of schools with high acedemic standards. Public schooling promotes segregation. I would go into it deeper but then I would be sitting here all day, and I don't want carple tunnel, plus I'm sure by now people are debating around in circles, wish I would have seen this one earlier.
Good point, much better to have everyone stupid than segregate people. Wouldn't want to offend anyone or make them feel bad. By the way, how is that social promotion working out in the schools these days? I hear its really producing outstanding achievers.
You are one of the most dishonest posters to debate with. Yea, I said it! You never deal in fact you make up things as you go.
It was dishonest of me to point out the FACT that Whitney Young HS is a part of the Chicago Public Schools system, and that it is not therefore some private school standing as an emblem for what the "dismantling of public education" could accomplish in this country?
It was dishonest of me to point out the FACT that while the school is indeed located two blocks into the predominantly black and lower income southside of Chicago, it is not made up of ghetto kids at all, but is in fact a selective school that draws from across the entire city and for which minimum academic standards must be met before being even allowed to apply?
Oops. My bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts
In three seconds of looking up the school. I was able to find the demographics.
35% Black
25% White
21% Hispanic
19% Asian
What, you had to look it up??? Maybe you should have done that a few posts ago. And let's see, Chicago as a whole is about 37% black, 26% Hispanic...yep, except for some extra Asians, that's pretty much what the city looks like alright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts
Now, let me think why would someone post a picture of only the swim team and vollyball team as if that is somehow indicitive of the entire student body when the school post its diversity information on a website. Oh, that's right, someone who cannot accept fact and is dishonest in the way they attempt to present information.
That's interesting. 25% white and more than 82% minority. Who'd have thought it. I guess Whitney Young is just as remarkable as you say.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts
Saganista, what about Dunbar High School in Washington DC in the late 1880's through 1950 that sent 60 blacks to Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Wellesley, Penn and various other Ivy League schools. How would your liberal litmus test hold up against those students.
Oh, just fine I think. Dunbar is of course a part of the DC Public Schools system. It was the first black public HS in the District and was championed early on by well-to-do blacks in the community. With that backing, the faculty came to include large numbers of black PhD's who, of course, could not find jobs teaching at white universities, and soon enough rich and well-educated blacks were moving to DC from all over the country just to get their kids into Dunbar, which came to enjoy a Harvard-like national reputation for many years. With desegregation in the 50's and 60's, most of that came to an end. Today, Dunbar is a more or less typical urban HS, but with its distinguished history, it is still a source of considerable civic pride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by truthhurts
Look, at this point with your posting dishonest information i'm no longer willing to debate you. I'll kindly drop out and agree disagree. When you come to the board willing to debate with some professionalism and honesty i'll engage you but until that happens i will not respond.
Okay by me. I'll just have to poke holes in the unfounded claims that others put up. It isn't like there's some sort of shortage of that around here...
Oh look I just found another extremely poor school, but it happens to be ranked the #1 school in Georgia. Where is that silly little logic you had? 1. You need to be rich to do well in school 2. You need to have two parents?
Davidson Fine Arts
Demographics
Black 45%
White 45%
Other 10%
Median Income in the County, that the children are chosen from $37,000
County Demographics
Black 50%
White 44%
Other 6%
County Wide Poverty 16.8% of the people lived under the poverty level
20% of the household in the county are single mothers
Davidson was recognized as the #1 School in the State of Georgia consecutively in the 1996 through 2003 school years.
Truly amazing what you get out of students when you hold them to higher standards. While I agree it much easier for a child from a wealhty two parent background to become academically successful, that is not reason to lower the bar, because you have no hope for poor children and believe, based on their social economic standing they're stupid. I have never heard something so offensive in my life!
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