Smoking in the car - with children (propaganda, job, against)

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Nah, see, that's the beauty of it. According to the MYOB law of debate (yeah I know, I missed that day in debate class too), we CAN'T say anything about regard for someone else's children. Only our own. You see, our parenting affects our individual worlds and their parenting affects their individual world

Yea, I've seen that debate in this thread. I respond with a resounding No.

Originally Posted by Roadking2003

Common knowledge is useless. Common knowledge held that the earth was flat a long time ago.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

No, common BELIEF held that the earth was flat. Then, people gained the common knowledge that it wasn't.

common knowledge - definition of common knowledge by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Sad that the distinction needs to be pointed out.

[Speleothem]

I hate second hand smoke.
Therefore, I open the damn window.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I skimmed through it.

Well than you aren't really interested in hearing my side and how one might go about presenting it's argument.

I see no reason you should be able to decide who else breathes in the cigarette smoke you've chosen for yourself

Funny, neither do I! Had you read the blog entry in it's entirety you would know that. I have no more "right" to smoke than you do to......do whatever. What I do think people have EVERY right to do, is to use their common sense and logic, reason, and intelligence, to make choices based on the known information about what they decide to subject themselves to. Say, a bar for example. If you know full well that the owner permits smoking, and you don't want to be exposed to potentialy unhealthy amounts of SHS, the logical decision would be not to patronize such a place wouldn't it? I cover all of this and then some in my blog entry.

Though I do realise that when discussing situations involving children, this argument flies right out the window, pun intended.

And I'm fine with leaving it up to businesses if they want smoke floating around in their buildings, btw.

Thats good to hear Vic, but the real question is, would you vote yes or no to a smoking ban on the ballot. Thats the only thing I care about. To me, the rest is just semantics.

Yes, the harmful effects of SHS are still up for debate. But it'll take more than a speculation that "It's all about the money. The government's lying to us, etc." to change my mind.

I don't want you taking anyones speculation, including my own. I want you to take enough interest and become involved enough to look at ALL the facts and make your decision from there. Thats all I ask of anyone.

[quote]

Originally Posted by Just a Bill

Wow, you're on a roll! Take on the universe, skippy!

My brother got sick fairly often from the smoke, it happened at home too, even my mother admitted as much. That trip was just the extreme case. I remember becoming light headed from it at times myself.

IF it really was the smoke that caused your brother to be sick { which from what I can see is merely specualtiion on your part and your part alone } then yes, your parents were completely in the wrong. When vacationing, we stop at a rest stop every three hours or so and let the smokers get their cigs in. It's the right thing to do.

Anyway, back to your shilling for the tobacco industry!

Where have I defended the tobacco industry at all? I have not and have no interest in doing so. I am merely taking advantage of my right as an American citizen { while I still have it } to speak out against the hypocrisy of the war on smokers. I am defending my rights, and yours, to be able to make our own choices without having a law that dictates what we can and cannot do as private citizens in this supposedly free country. I am warning you and others of what can potentialy come from passing legislation such as ANTI smoking laws. THATS what I am doing.

Originally Posted by vamos

None taken. Although I think you should have realized by now that I am not an "anti." I no longer smoke myself, but I have never had a problem with anyone making the choice to do so.

I have encountered many anti's on message boards and in real life and I know your not one. Your "vigorously smoking a cigarette" comment just happened to fit nicely with what I was saying.

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

I would be surprised if most were capable of reading and understanding studies noted here and on the news.

What's to read or understand? The bottom line is always the same....."smoking is DEADLY, and if you don't stop you will kill yourself and everyone around you immediately!!!!!

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

No, common BELIEF held that the earth was flat. Then, people gained the common knowledge that it wasn't.

common knowledge - definition of common knowledge by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

For once, something we can agree on.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

NOT to attack you or your right to smoke, and not to perpetuate the idea that it should be illegal altogether, but dig deeper: Why do you "just like to smoke"?

You seem to be much like the Christians over on R&P who can't accept the fact that Atheists just don't believe in a God or even NEED a God in order to exist. They always assert "deep down, you KNOW there has to be a God, you just choose to reject him.

Vic, can't you just accept the fact that some of us just ike to smoke? We like the taste, texture, and feel of the smoke in through our lips and out through our nose. The aromatic and rich flavor explosion we feel as the smoke permeates our taste buds. We just like it. No filthy addiction, we just happen to like it the same way you may like meat balls. Get it?

Originally Posted by chickenfriedbananas

For the simple reason that if they stopped selling them, they would become a black market item and would be just another drug the DEA would have to track. Alcohol prohibition didn't work, the blanket prohibition of drugs isn't working, and cigarette prohibition won't work either. I think they're trying to, pardon the pun, choke smoking out gradually, by just making it more and more unwelcome in public places -- and more expensive. And that's probably not a bad strategy to effectively ban or stringently curb the use of an addictive product, and it's probably a model for how we should solve the narcotics problems in this country.
.

Granted, thats one of the reasons, but it is by no means as simple as that. If the gov't were to outlaw the sale of tobacco products, as I said before, many gov. programs would go bankrupt.

Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal

I guess the ultra-defensive smokers can just declare their cars an extention of the womb and call smoking in the car with those little clumps of cells a "choice" for late term abortion.

Hey anti's!!! Did ya read this?????? This comment represents the epitome of ignorance from your side. Ya might wanna do something about it.

Originally Posted by redvelvet709

Folks who smoke are slaves to their addiction, so the willpower to not smoke while in the car, kids or not, just isn't there. It's a self-indulgent habit. Try asking a smoker to wait for their cigarette.

Buying into our own bull are we??????

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Say no more. That is just what we're doing

Controlling????? thats what your doing? Well, high time one of you came right out and admitted it.

Originally Posted by Ghostrider275452

Well, it's rel easy, open the window beside you about 1/2 inch and make sure the fan is on. This will pressurise the inside of the car and force all smoke out of the window before it reaches the kids. Problem solved.

Nope....that ain't gonna be good enough for some folks. Hell, even if it could some how be proven that all smokers do not light up around their children { which I am not asserting as much } it STILL would NOT be good enough for some. They won't be happy until they get a law on the books, and then on to the next step of flicking smokers in to the ash bin of society.

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

I'm curious about this as well


This is true.

One more thing to add. To the smokers in this thread, please stop flicking your butts all over creation. No need to be a litter bug. Put them out and keep them in your pocket. I know that's gross, but it's better than littering so that we don't all have to share in the nastiness.

Agreed. Have some respect for the Earth we live on and the others who inhabit it.

[Vic 2.0]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Well than you aren't really interested in hearing my side and how one might go about presenting it's argument.

What, because I didn't read the entire page? Give me your counterpoints, one by one, as they are relevant to my argument. If there's any more to discuss, that is.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Say, a bar for example. If you know full well that the owner permits smoking, and you don't want to be exposed to potentialy unhealthy amounts of SHS, the logical decision would be not to patronize such a place wouldn't it?

Sure, and I agreed on that note. It doesn't require government getting involved on the issue of businesses and who can smoke a cigarette in their buildings.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Thats good to hear Vic, but the real question is, would you vote yes or no to a smoking ban on the ballot. Thats the only thing I care about. To me, the rest is just semantics.

I had already said I wasn't suggesting it be made illegal, so no.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

You seem to be much like the Christians over on R&P who can't accept the fact that Atheists just don't believe in a God or even NEED a God in order to exist. They always assert "deep down, you KNOW there has to be a God, you just choose to reject him.

I AM atheist, and the reason these two are not comparable is that there is no objective evidence of god's existence. It's purely a faith issue. Whether or not SHS can cause health problems is NOT a faith issue. I can't accept the fact that OTHERS cannot accept the facts, or a least offer facts to dispute them.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Vic, can't you just accept the fact that some of us just ike to smoke? We like the taste, texture, and feel of the smoke in through our lips and out through our nose. We just like it. No filthy addiction, we just happen to like it the same way you may like meat balls. Get it?

All that is understood. Doesn't make it any less foolish. I concede that some of these people are WAY TOO HOSTILE toward smokers and they're just as much the problem, say I. I wouldn't call you or anyone who smokes a fool personally. But the act is foolish. And it isn't that fact that you want me to accept; it's smoking itself, and there's no chance of that happening.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Controlling????? thats what your doing? Well, high time one of you came right out and admitted it.

There are no moral absolutes. Many would acknowledge "Don't kill" as an example; why should "Don't control" be any different?

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I AM atheist, and the reason these two are not comparable is that there is no objective evidence of god's existence. It's purely a faith issue. Whether or not SHS can cause health problems is NOT a faith issue. I can't accept the fact that OTHERS cannot accept the facts, or a least offer facts to dispute them.

I wasn't comparing the two issues at all and you know it. I was comparing your and others assertion that "smokers can't really actually enjoy smoking, thats just a lie they tell themselves" to the Christians who contend that Atheists can't actually believe there is no God.

, say I. I wouldn't call you or anyone who smokes a fool personally. But the act is foolish

Hey vic, I get that.

. And it isn't that fact that you want me to accept; it's smoking itself, and there's no chance of that happening.

I'm asking you to accept our right as business owners and likewise private property owners the right to choose whether we allow smoking or not. I'm asking you to accept the fact that there should be no law on the books saying smoking in cars with children present is illeagal. From what I gatherm you and I are on the same page when it comes to the legality of it. As they say, we aren't that different after all, you and I. Now if you want to argue the morality of it, or the dangers of it, thats someone elses argument, not mine.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

What's to read or understand? The bottom line is always the same....."smoking is DEADLY, and if you don't stop you will kill yourself and everyone around you immediately!!!!!

Have you ever read a methods section in a paper? Have you ever bothered to spend time understanding the patho and biochem surrounding the claims, or the quality of a study, what it takes to get published before you form opinions about a study or the medical community? I'd bet the answer to those questions is no across the board.

The spoon fed one-liners fed by the media are all most can and want to handle.

[Braunwyn]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88

Vic, can't you just accept the fact that some of us just ike to smoke? We like the taste, texture, and feel of the smoke in through our lips and out through our nose. The aromatic and rich flavor explosion we feel as the smoke permeates our taste buds. We just like it. No filthy addiction, we just happen to like it the same way you may like meat balls. Get it?

I don't see how you people don't understand that you are addicted. It's so bizarre. I get the enjoyment aspect. There is nothing like a large iced coffee with milk and a cig mid-summer or drink with a cig. I like to study with cigs, draw with cigs, write with cigs, yammer on with cigs. I loved the taste, the feeling of it going down my throat and filling my lungs. It satiates. Of course, I could never escape my own ability to reason. Everything that I positively associated with cigs was connected to alleviating withdrawal. Ultimately, that's why I enjoy all of those thing. As I mentioned earlier, it's unlikely that you would enjoy the smoke, toxins, whatever if your cig did not have nicotine. Again, how can you not know this?

Agreed. Have some respect for the Earth we live on and the others who inhabit it.

How can we expect smokers to respect the Earth and others in their vicinity if they don't respect themselves? We treat the world as we treat ourselves.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

Have you ever read a methods section in a paper? Have you ever bothered to spend time understanding the patho and biochem surrounding the claims, or the quality of a study, what it takes to get published before you form opinions about a study or the medical community? I'd bet the answer to those questions is no across the board.

The spoon fed one-liners fed by the media are all most can and want to handle.

Braunwyn, Ive spent more hours on this than you will ever know. Unlike half the things I talk about on this site, this is something I am passionate about. Hours upon hours of studying the facts, duscussing the subject, and so forth. I usually tend to shy away from rendering opinions on things I know nothing about.

[WhipperSnapper 88]

Originally Posted by Braunwyn

How can we expect smokers to respect the Earth and others in their vicinity if they don't respect themselves? We treat the world as we treat ourselves.

I agreed with you an you went and turned it around on me.... Figures.