Is Pittsburgh right for us? If so, where? (Penn Hills, Bethel Park: crime, chapel)

[edoubleatl]

My wife and I are considering a move and would like to know if you think Pittsburgh would be right for us, and if so, what areas you think we should consider. I'll provide you with some background.

About Us

We are a mid-30s Black/African-American couple currently residing in downtown Atlanta. We have a son who is currently 16 months old. My wife is originally from Ohio and is an ER physician working in two of the hospitals in the downtown area. I am originally from MD, have an MBA, and do marketing strategy for a company intown. We live in a very diverse neighborhood, which we value tremendously (our street is almost exactly half black and half white, mostly professionals, a gay couple, an interracial couple, etc). We want our son to have a multi-cultural/multi-racial upbringing because that is what we experienced coming up. As far as income is concerned we have our debts pretty well managed and are ok financially.

Why are we considering a move from Atlanta?

Thought you might ask that. Primarily, we want to move to a city that is closer to family. My wife's parent's are in Columbus, my brother-in-law is in Detroit, and my parents and brother are right outside of DC. As such, we are trying to find a place that is an easy drive for either family. We want to ensure that our son doesn't only have a "holiday" relationship with his extended family, and want to put ourselves in a position to be closer to our parents as they age.

In addition, my wife and I both went to college in Atlanta, and have grown tired of the negatives of the city. Crime is pretty bad and feels like it's getting worse. The transportation infrastructure has been outpaced by the population growth, so traffic is awful and not getting better anytime soon. Politically, I would consider us left-leaning centrists, and unfortunately, the South is the South.

Lastly, we live in the city now but want to move to a more suburban environment. In Atlanta, suburban options appear to be 1) live around all blacks (which we don't want), 2) live in a conservative-dense area (which also includes low diversity), and/or 3) live in an area that is very far out and would cause a miserable commute. Plus, public school options seem to be lacking in the metro area in general, so while we would consider private school, we don't want that to be the only viable option.

We do enjoy the restaurants in town, the weather, the vibe of the city, and the culture, but these are outweighed by the negatives at this point.

So, why Pittsburgh?

Frankly speaking, we know nothing at all about Pittsburgh. One of my wife's friends from school is from Pittsburgh, and provided some insight that suggests that it might be nicer than we realize. Obviously, it is a perfect midpoint for all of our families. What we don't know is whether or not it could be a good destination based on what we are hoping to find. She advised that an area called Wexford could meet our needs, and also named Squirrel Hill as an option if we wanted to live intown.

From a job perspective, my wife would obviously try to find a position with a University or a private group. For me, there is a likelihood that I will be able to stay with my company and work from home as a remote employee, so commute isn't a huge issue.

Assuming that Pittsburgh could potentially work, here are the things we care about the most, in no particular order:

1) Great public school options
2) Some diversity (doesn't have to be like what we have now, but don't want our son to be "the only black kid" per se)
3) Nice homes with a decent amount of land. New construction or relatively new homes, in a subdivision, would be preferable.
4) Low traffic
5) Not a painfully long drive to the city if we want to enjoy some culture
6) Safe area, with walking trails, good neighbors and residents, etc

Sorry for the very long thread, but thanks for reading and for any guidance that you can provide for us. Very much appreciate it.

Thank you,

Eric

[Renaldo5000]

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

1) Great public school options

Most of the Pittsburgh city public schools are not good. There are a few good "charter" schools that parents clamor to get their kids into in the city, but I hear there are long waiting lists for them. Most of the good public school options exist in the outlying suburbs. Fox Chapel, Upper St. Clair, and Quaker Valley are all considered the "best" school districts. Those are also very well-to-do areas.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

2) Some diversity (doesn't have to be like what we have now, but don't want our son to be "the only black kid" per se)

Pittsburgh is very segregated. The black people have their neighborhoods, white people have their neighborhoods, etc.. The only places in the city that I can think of that would have any amount of "diversity" would be the Squirrel Hill, Regent Square, and Point Breeze neighborhoods. The suburbs are overwhelmingly white. You will probably be the only black family around. You might see an Asian family here or there though.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

3) Nice homes with a decent amount of land. New construction or relatively new homes, in a subdivision, would be preferable.

There are tons of subdivisions and McMansions in the surrounding municipalities. As I said however, you will be the only black people there. Some of the first-ring suburbs (Mt. Lebanon, Aspinwall, etc..) have walkable downtowns, but for the most part Pittsburgh's suburbs are kind of rural-ish and spread out. You will however be close to big box mini-malls with Best Buys and Targets and such.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

6) Safe area, with walking trails, good neighbors and residents, etc

Most of the suburbs are very safe. The city is safe if you live in the right neighborhoods.

In a nutshell: Sewickley, Fox Chapel, Bethel Park, Upper St. Clair, Mt. Lebanon, or spots in Moon or Pine if you have money. Aspinwall, Avalon, or Ross township if you want something nice but a bit cheaper. Bellevue (declining recently though) or Dormont if you want something still kind of nice but more working class.

But, like I said Pittsburgh is not diverse at all. I think that you are in for a shock in regards to that.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

Lastly, we live in the city now but want to move to a more suburban environment. In Atlanta, suburban options appear to be 1) live around all blacks (which we don't want), 2) live in a conservative-dense area (which also includes low diversity), and/or 3) live in an area that is very far out and would cause a miserable commute.

Pittsburgh's metro isn't very diverse. The suburbs are mostly white. The city neighborhoods are somewhat segregated with some being almost all black, some being a mix, and some being mostly white.

This isn't forced socially by the white population. People don't treat blacks badly when they move into a mostly white area. However, my personal experience has been that whites are treated badly if they move into a mostly black area. Of course, those areas tend to be very depressed and impoverished so it's probably more of an economic mentality than a racial mentality. At least, I like to think that's the reason.

That said, Pittsburgh's suburbs are becoming more diverse. Your son would definitely not be the only black child attending school. I'm 45 and when I was growing up, there were a couple in each grade of 800 children. Now there are probably 10 black children, a couple of asian children, and one middle eastern or latino if that per grade. Some school districts are more diverse than others, but some of the most racially diverse districts have racial tension (like Woodland Hills).

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

1) Great public school options

Pittsburgh has quite a few fantastic suburban school districts. You will have many options. Where your wife works will be the determining factor. You will find that our private schools are very affordable compared to those in Atlanta. I think you'll also find more diversity in the elite private schools than you will in the public school districts. As a result, you might want to seriously consider private schools, but it's certainly not your only option in Pittsburgh.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

2) Some diversity (doesn't have to be like what we have now, but don't want our son to be "the only black kid" per se)

I explained it above.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

3) Nice homes with a decent amount of land. New construction or relatively new homes, in a subdivision, would be preferable.

Pittsburgh's suburbs are fairly spread out. You can easily find houses with large lots. The subdivisions won't have lots that are as large though. New construction would put you mostly in subdivisions with smaller lots----like those in the Cranberry area. If you're willing to have quality homes that are older, Fox Chapel has very large wooded lots. But there's new construction scattered throughout almost all of the suburbs so you could easily find what you like in Hampton too.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

4) Low traffic

Compared to Atlanta, you'll love our traffic.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

5) Not a painfully long drive to the city if we want to enjoy some culture

Our farthest suburbs are only a 30 minute drive into downtown. Of course, surrounding counties take a bit longer. But you don't have to move too far away from downtown to be in a less congested and less densly populated area.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

6) Safe area, with walking trails, good neighbors and residents, etc

Most of the Pittsburgh metro is safe with the exception of a few isolated neighborhoods in the cities or along the rivers. These neighborhood wouldn't have the type of housing you want so it's very unlikely that you would accidently end up buying in a dangerous neigbhorhood.

Originally Posted by iwonderwhy2124

Most of the Pittsburgh city public schools are not good.

That's irrrelvant since the OP wants to live in the suburbs.

[Renaldo5000]

Originally Posted by Hopes

but some of the most racially diverse districts have racial tension (like Woodland Hills).

Woodland Hills is a warzone. OP doesn't want his child going there.

:tongue out:

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by iwonderwhy2124

Woodland Hills is a warzone. OP doesn't want his child going there.

:tongue out:

Yeah, yeah. I know! That was my POINT!

[BrianTH]

I'd be happy to be wrong, but I'm not coming up with a newer suburban area with great public schools that is ethnically diverse (meaning at least roughly as diverse as the City, Allegheny County, or the U.S. as a whole).

Assuming I'm right about that, I think you would have to ask yourself which of those things you would be most willing to trade off.

[Hopes]

I'd like to mention a very important point about diversity here.

Pittsburgh's metro isn't diverse mostly because there aren't very many minorities living in the area compared to Atlanta.

Allegheny County, PA only has 13% blacks. Pennsylvania is only 10%.

Fulton County, GA has 43% blacks. Georgia has 30%

The entire country is like that---there's simply a higher percentage of blacks in the south compared to the north.

For true diversity in the Pittsburgh metro area, every neighobrhood, township and school district would have 13% blacks.

Because true diversity is when people base their housing choices on something other than racial demographics.

I'm trying to say that there shouldn't be an area in Pittsburgh's metro that's 50/50 because that would hinder the ability of other areas to become diverse.

Hope that makes sense.

[edoubleatl]

Thank you for all of the information thus far. I very much appreciate the rapid responses.

Since we are considering suburbs, it does sound like we will have to consider that our son will be one of very few should we decide to make Pittsburgh our home. I guess the other question then is, are race relations positive in the suburbs? For instance, does the "one black family" or "one black kid" feel welcome? It may or may not be easy to answer that question, but that would be key.

For us, it's less about race, and more about a warm, accepting community. My wife grew up in a mostly white church, and has relationships with families from that church to this day. I grew up in schools that were mostly white, but again, have wonderful friendships. Race in and of itself was never really an issue, and that is mainly what I want for my son. Natural segregation is the fault of no one, so no issues there. However, when there is integration, if it's a positive experience for all parties then that is really ideal.

I will begin doing some research on some of the areas that you all described. If you have additional insights please let me know.

By the way, what is the situation with Woodland Hills? I could tell you were ribbing each other, but wasn't sure what the underlying story was all about.

Lastly, what areas do I want to avoid? Could be for crime, for racial uneasiness, poor schools, congestion, whatever. Just want to know what areas we should put on our "No thank you" list.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I'd like to mention a very important point about diversity here.
Pittsburgh's metro isn't diverse mostly because there aren't very many minorities living in the area compared to Atlanta.
Allegheny County, PA only has 13% blacks. Pennsylvania is only 10%.
Fulton County, GA has 43% blacks. Georgia has 30%
The entire country is like that---there's simply a higher percentage of blacks in the south compared to the north.
For true diversity in the Pittsburgh metro area, every neighobrhood, township and school district would have 13% blacks.
Because true diversity is when people base their housing choices on something other than racial demographics.
I'm trying to say that there shouldn't be an area in Pittsburgh's metro that's 50/50 because that would hinder the ability of other areas to become diverse.
Hope that makes sense.

So in other words, we will not achieve diversity until every place looks exactly the same as every other. There's an ironic monotony in that kind of diversity.

Anyway, I echo the basic sentiment of the responses so far. Pittsburgh is not particularly diverse or integrated, and moreover, much of the population is fine with that.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

By the way, what is the situation with Woodland Hills? I could tell you were ribbing each other, but wasn't sure what the underlying story was all about.

I don't know the details. It's a school district that resulted from districts merging together in the more recent past compared to other areas that were merged in the 70s. As a result, there is a lot of racial tension, probably due to econimic issues more than anything else. I had to enroll my son into a cyber school due to illess. At the orientation, the room was FILLED with black and white families who were pulling their children out of Woodland Hills school district because it had become way too volitile and dangerous for them to feel comfortable sending their children to the school. It's probably the most racially challenged school districts in the area.

We weren't actually ribbing on another. My response was due to my thinking that iwonderwhy didn't realize that I was warning you against Woodland Hills.

Originally Posted by edoubleatl

Lastly, what areas do I want to avoid? Could be for crime, for racial uneasiness, poor schools, congestion, whatever. Just want to know what areas we should put on our "No thank you" list.

There are few suburban townships that you should avoid except Woodland Hills. I'll add Penn Hills. You'd like the racial demographics of Penn Hills, but the area sadly suffered from white flight in the 70s and 80s. Housing prices suffered. And the safety of some of the neighborhoods suffered too.

I personally think the entire South Hills region of Pittsburgh is overly congested compared to the North Hills region. I also think that you'll be surprised by our housing prices. You're going to be able to buy much more house for your money here in Pittsburgh.

My question to you is would you like to live among your economic peers? Or would you like to live in a township that has a large mix of families from many economic backgrounds (working class, middle class, upper middle class). I can give you a list of the areas best school districts, but some of those school districts are surprisingly not our wealthiest townships. (North Hill's School District which serves Ross Township is one example.) But I think most people will tend to recommend that you live in Fox Chapel, Sewickley, etc.---wherever the old money is located since your wife is a doctor.

Give us a little more guidance into what you want from a township aside from good schools and we'll be able to give you a better answer. Good schools and safe neighborhoods go hand and hand in the metro area. What else do you want from your neighborhood?

Originally Posted by Drover

So in other words, we will not achieve diversity until every place looks exactly the same as every other. There's an ironic monotony in that kind of diversity.

I realize it's ironic. Diversity is a confusing buzz word. What's the point of diversity if areas are segregated? Everyone goes on and on about diversity. They'll point to NYC as a great example. Yet there's huge segregated populations---China Town, Little Italy, Harlem, etc. Yet, IMO, the buzz word diversity is the ideal of everyone living together without regard to economic or racial demographics.

I was simply trying to point out that there isn't enough of a black population in Pittsburgh for any one area to become 50% black without severely lowering the percentage of black residents in other neighborhoods. The reality is that the Pittsburgh metro area is over 80% white. Nothing in the near future will be changing that reality.