Commuter Rail Rekindled (New Castle, McKeesport, Greensburg: mover, homes, price)

[nuwaver88]

Peduto pushes north-south city rail system (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09306/1010111-147.stm - broken link)

I especially like the fact that a connector is being planned from Southside Works to Hazelwood. This means one can potetially go from South Side to Lawrenceville via rail.

[Geeo]

The Port Authority is already planning a bus route from Lawrenceville to South Side in their new transit plan. I don't see a heavy rail route working for that short a distance. Would be very expensive to operate and it would be difficult to integrate into the existing transit system.

[pman]

what's this

it would connect to the Port Authority's busway, bike trails and a high-speed rail connector that Bombardier wants to build from SouthSide Works to Hazelwood. The Urban Redevelopment Authority has agreed to be Bombardier's agent to get state funding.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09306/1010111-147.stm#ixzz0Vid2XmS2

sounds like a decent idea, anyone have a map?

[Impala26]

I like the idea of utilizing the corridor/ROW, and I don't think anyone can argue with that fairly low price-point, but there are some key issues with a plan like this in my opinion:

Terrain:
While the route itself is fairly flat, what isn't stated is that the line from Lawrenceville to Hazelwood is predominantly in a fairly deep ravine, and about one third of that length is a a one-track tunnel under North Oakland. What does this mean? Well, being at the bottom of a ravine puts it anywhere between 50 to 100 feet below most major roads in Oakland (I should know, I walk over Junction Hollow daily). Elevators or massive escalators would have to built to accommodate such stations. And while this is close to CMU's lower campus and potentially the heart of Hazelwood and Lawrenceville, it is not very close to Oakland's, Bloomfield's, or Greenfield's central business district.

Modes:
The Port Authority currently runs three modes of transit: buses, light rail, and funiculars (inclines). This plan would add a fourth mode of transit to operate, heavy rail. True, this has been used in the past, but clearly was under-utilized enough to the point where PAT shut them down. If a keen partnership between PAT and Bombardier develops, we could potentially then see yet another mode develop, in the form of some type of people-mover (think the shuttle at the airport).

I think it would be a huge gamble for PAT to potentially add two new types of transit to the area. I don't think adding one new mode would be a bad thing, but it had better serve a wide population base and demand of travel from point A to B. That said, I think a people mover system could effectively work if it were designed as a loop system that effectively linked Downtown, Uptown, South Side, Hazelwood/Greenfield, Oakland, Shadyside, Bloomfield, Lawrenceville, and the Strip District. However such a system, even designed with an elevated track (as opposed to the cut-and-cover proposals for the "spine line" of the T light rail) would still probably cost upwards of 1 billion dollars.

The Junction Hollow corridor is ripe for transit development; it's mostly undeveloped right now, but that's likely because of it's poor topography. While that poor topography renders it virtually uninhabited, that same nature lends it to be a natural selection for rail and highway. In the 1960's a highway development plan for the region was released, and it called for a link between the Mon-Fayette Expressway to the Parkway East, through this corridor and ultimately to Route 28. One testament to this original project remains, the Birmingham Bridge. Ever wonder why that bridge is six lanes wide?

[greg42]

The stupid thing is near the end of the article it notes that the same track goes from New Castle to Washington, PA. Now you wouldn't have to go end to end, but the longer a run you create on that line the more useful it becomes and more efficient it would in theory to be to operate it. I've heard this proposal before with the Lawrenceville to Hazelwood thing, and it's just too darn short to make sense it seems to me.

I wonder where the line passes through on the way to those ends? Stations out there, with parking lots, why wouldn't that be appealing? The only issue is the potential freight traffic, but I've seen commuter rail work on other tracks shared with freight, even with the same company (CSX).

I understand the start small in order to keep the cost smaller, but, really, I'm wondering how that makes sense with heavy rail on existing lines. It seems like the economy of scale suggests a longer commuter run on the same rails would have only a relatively tiny increase in overall costs.

[Impala26]

Yeah Greg I agree with you here. I do not see the benefit of a heavy commuter rail traversing a simple 3 mile route. I was always under the impression that commuter rail was for longer-distance travel than that. If somehow it could be linked with a potential future Allegheny Valley commuter rail line in Lawrenceville, then it makes a lot more sense.

To me though, that central north-south corridor screams something more along the lines of light rail or some other "connector" type mode. I even recall reading somewhere about the possibility of third-railing the segment and using a special model of light rail trains. Maybe not third rail, but I specifically recall reading about some form of light train to use the existing ROW without having to install a catenary system. Maybe it was something like diesel-electric, but I don't recall specifically.

[ctoocheck]

Yeah, this route isn't really "commuter rail" at all. It's more of a shuttle or something. I guess it's nice to connect the places where different branches of CMU/Pitt are, but to actually encourage more use and development, it would probably have to go further.

There's a good blog entry about this at Politics and Place.

[BrianTH]

As I recall, I believe the plan would be for it to eventually serve as the bridge between real commuter rail coming along the Al and Mon respectively.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

As I recall, I believe the plan would be for it to eventually serve as the bridge between real commuter rail coming along the Al and Mon respectively.

Anyone know how this line gets to New Castle and Washington, though? My guess is that it's not along the rivers (maybe part is but it can't all be). No matter where it passes through it's hard to believe it wouldn't make sense to use it. Forget connecting to Allegheny and Mon lines. If this one is already lightly used why not use it?

That short connector wouldn't make sense no matter how many other commuter lines you had going. It only makes sense as part of a longer run. If you can have commuter rail in on the Mon or Allegheny, fine, let's have it. But you don't need Peduto's thing up and running first.

[ctoocheck]

This thing would seem to make more sense to me if it went somewhere of more importance/use: on to Downtown, or Homestead, maybe even Etna or Oakmont or somewhere. Right now it's just kind of a shuttle between these few spots. It is kind of fancy, though, and given the apparently low costs, maybe worth a try, especially since it would be extended fairly easily, I guess...

Anyone know how this line gets to New Castle and Washington, though?

There is a rail line through Hampton Twp, Mars, Evans City, Zelienople, and Elwood City. Maybe that way? No idea what sort of repair/use that ROW is in. I guess along the Ohio would work too, maybe.
To Washington... there's apparently a line between McKeesport and Finleyville. This is just from what Google Earth says, though, so...

Maybe it would make more sense going on to Greensburg. That route has already been studied and all, after all.