Questions about Southern Parts of the North Side (Pittsburgh, West View: renting, violent crime)

[PGH423]

I have some questions about living in the southern parts of the north side (mainly Central Northside, Allegheny West, and East Allegheny, and maybe Manchester). I really like the architecture and sense of community in these areas but don’t know a lot about them. Which are the less safe/desirable sections of these communities? Can a person walk alone from most spots in these communities to the north shore? What about the early night hours? My ideal home would be a detached “rowhome-like” house but I know these are fairly uncommon.

[RogersParkTransplant]

So, we live on Spring Hill but in the part closest to East Deutschtown, and we walk around a lot and know the area fairly well. It's all very, very walkable and I have never felt unsafe (speaking as a woman in my late 30s who is often out with a small kid or two). If you visit the area, what you see is pretty much what you get -- the areas with the obviously fancy homes are indeed the most desirable. That being said, it's all getting cleaned up very rapidly, and it's all going up rapidly in price.

Allegheny West and the Mexican War Streets have the fanciest homes and the most strongly established community. Manchester is up there too, though some parts are better than others -- but again, it's obvious which areas are the nicest. The Central Northside on the other side of Federal is changing rapidly; there are a ton of renovations happening and my guess is that the whole area will be as fancy as the Mexican War Streets within ten years. Same with Deutschtown. East Deutschtown is the most run down of these areas, and has the strongest presence of drug abuse and poverty, but again this is changing -- homes are getting flipped, the new Kaffeehaus is doing well, and there are fewer and fewer empty buildings every year.

Let me know if you have more specific questions, but a detached rowhouse in this area doesn't strike me as hard to find. What sort of price range are you working with?

[norcider]

The only areas I can think of where I am more vigilant is the intersection of Cedar and E. Ohio, and Federal north of North Avenue. That's to say I am just more careful of the people around me. Most the the "lower" North Side is really tame these days, it's nothing like it was 15-20 years ago. Good luck.

[PGH423]

Thanks. I appreciate all the information. I wasn't sure if my questions seemed too dumb or uninformed.

Originally Posted by norcider

The only areas I can think of where I am more vigilant is the intersection of Cedar and E. Ohio, and Federal north of North Avenue. That's to say I am just more careful of the people around me. Most the the "lower" North Side is really tame these days, it's nothing like it was 15-20 years ago. Good luck.

Oh is Federal St north of North Avenue not a good area? I looked at a beautiful row house (1501 Boyle St) yesterday. I really wanted a detached home not an attached row home but the area didn't seem bad. Is that not a good area?

What sort of price range are you working with?

I was looking to spend up to $350K. I could spend more if I fell in love with a house though. If I could find something I loved that cost less, that would be better. Basically I'm pretty flexible.

Are all of these areas either in the 15212 or 15233 zip code? That's what I've been searching online. It seemed pretty rare that a detached row house went on the market.

Some of you may remember about a week ago I posted a thread about the inner-ring north hills suburbs. That's primarily where I have my realtor focusing. Once I figure out exactly what interests me on the north side, I think I'll expand the search. I imagine living in the lower north side vs. the inner suburbs (Ross, West View) is quite different.

[norcider]

"Oh is Federal St north of North Avenue not a good area? I looked at a beautiful row house (1501 Boyle St) yesterday. I really wanted a detached home not an attached row home but the area didn't seem bad. Is that not a good area? "

Despite the new homes built here, there is still an open air drug market that carries on during all hours. It is much better, and it would be uncommon for somebody not in the drug trade to have a problem here. But there is illegal activity happening in broad daylight every day. I use the library here, and get takeout from the restaurants, I'm not necessarily concerned, just careful.

[RogersParkTransplant]

Yes -- what norcider is referring to is really a smallish patch right around the Crazy Mocha and the library -- we go there all the time too. It's a weird mix of drug dealers and young professionals, but everyone gets along funnily enough. You have to have basic street smarts and a degree of comfort with petty nonviolent crime, and (sadly) you have to accept that some of the young people dealing drugs occasionally get shot, but it's exceedingly rare for this to affect the average person on the street. The new construction townhouses on Federal that are just a block or two past the library sell for over $400k and often to young families who are quite happy there.

Here's a nice listing that I would consider a "detached row house" -- it's in East Deutschtown, and a little slow to sell probably because Spring Garden Ave is a bit of a busy street, but it's still a gorgeous listing in a great location. Is this what you had in mind, more or less? I'm happy to throw around more suggestions later on, but in general you should have no problem finding something quite nice for $350k.

838 Spring Garden Ave, Central North Side, PA 15212 - realtor.com®

[acostiga]

Hello,

I'm still fairly new to the area (Mexican War Streets) but do have some observations based on my roughly two years of time/experiences. We're right on West North Avenue, basically across from the Aviary. I walk downtown to work M-F, either across the Clemente Bridge or over to the North Side T Station to catch a ride. And I do a fair amount of jogging, maybe three or four times per week- occasionally at odd hours. For context, I'm from the suburbs about 30 minutes to the north of Pittsburgh- so my impressions and whatever should be taken with a grain of salt.

Lots of what I'd consider to be uncomfortable or strange as far as what I've encountered has to do with what I am guessing is the homeless element. Maybe not all of the folks who are sleeping in the park, using the park as a public toilet, or panhandling around the area are homeless- but I don't know. There's a guy who seems to hang out underneath the railway bridge that's near the Clark Building, who I have walked past countless times. I don't think he's homeless (because his cellphone is nicer than mine and he wears nice footwear), and he's not an aggressive panhandler like some of those that I encounter downtown. He just sits there drinking beers, reading a newspaper, or whatever while people walk to/from Pirates games- and has a cup out to collect money from folks. Once, I overheard him telling another guy that he'd collected over $60 in under an hour before a Pirates game. Crazy!

Anyhow, when I'm walking to work the next day after a night baseball game his trash is normally in the spot where he had been sitting. Not sure if that kind of situation would make you uncomfortable- this is the mild side of things. I see lots of discarded needles, etc along that route as well. There were some people camping in the park last year, basically above the underpass, and I think they were throwing trash over the railing and onto the sidewalk.

I've also walked past bodies on the sidewalk, passed out or dead. One morning, on my walk to work, there was a guy down in a heap on the sidewalk across from what I believe is a state park maintenance facility. People were just walking past, as if it was nothing. I stopped, asked another person if I should call the police... and the guy just said, "You must be new around here." Evidently it's normal in that area for people to be passed out at all hours of the day/night. I also see lots of that in the park across from the Light of Life, but not as much along the route to the T station. I can't tell if the people that I have seen literally pulling their pants down in broad daylight on a street corner to urinate or defecate were in fact homeless or not- I guess that's not really the point. The point is, that I have seen way too many people using the park as an open-air toilet and there doesn't seem to be much in the way of a response from the authorities. It feels like this kind of undesirable behavior is not a priority for law enforcement.

As far as more aggressive or agitated encounters, I've had a few run-ins with people who have cornered me or blocked the sidewalk while I've been out jogging. Most of the time, I can't tell when that kind of thing will happen- and can't hear whatever is being yelled in my direction because I wear headphones while jogging. Sometimes it's jibberish from somebody that seems cracked-out, sometimes it's an animated plea for money. Rarely have I ever felt physically threatened, but I'm a pretty large guy and think that's been my saving grace. Also, I do my best to keep on jogging and not engage with anyone. I wouldn't want my wife to be out after dark, walking along some of the routes that I use while I'm doing an evening run.

There is a pretty active War Streets/Central North Side community Facebook page, and lots of the petty crime or whatever that goes on in the area is reported/discussed. Seems like there is always a bunch of trouble with things like package theft, unlocked cars being victimized, etc. Crimes of opportunity, I think. Lots of unsupervised youth, or folks who are looking to get whatever they can grab. The more dangerous and violent activity seems to be focused around Federal Street, where I gather more of the serious drug activity happens. We play a fun game in the area that involves having to guess if the loud noise was a nuisance firework or gunshots. It's 50/50 most of the time. There is evidently someone who haunts the War Streets and likes to blow up loud fireworks in empty dumpsters as a form of protest or just for general anarchy. The FB community is a great resource, and has helped me to learn a lot more about the area. People are generally warm and friendly, and anxious to be of help.

I think as long as you're not as naive as I have been in the past, and use general Common Sense, the Central North Side/War Streets area is OK. If there's a whacked-out person walking towards you on the sidewalk after dark, go to the other side of the road. Don't walk past the buildings where homeless people congregate, cross the road. Don't engage the man squatting at the edge of the playground and ask him not to use your community as his bathroom. If there are drunk people in the park across from your home, and they are yelling and carrying on at 3am, call the police instead of trying to ask that they keep it down because they've woken up your infant child with the yelling/screaming. Try to step quietly past the guy who has passed out on your front steps with his open malt liquor, because there is a bus stop on the corner where you live. There are always police cars driving along North Avenue, because the Zone Station is nearby on Brighton. That helps, having the police at least driving past. I'm sure they'd stop and help- but most of the time the police just drive past on their way to somewhere else.

Sorry to paint a somewhat bleak picture, but the situation is pretty different than what I've encountered living in other areas of the city. And as I tried to establish, I'm kind of a wimp as far as dealing with certain aspects of city life. Maybe the issue is the concentration of services for the homeless in the area, drawing that population to what should be an otherwise beautiful and enjoyable public space. Some of the issues/problems that I've described seem to be almost accepted as normal for the North Side. Maybe having a concentration of public housing in the area is a contributing factor to some of the issues. I don't know. Different discussion for another message thread.

If you are OK with some of the stuff that freaks my formerly suburban self out, the location is tough to beat. I love being so close to the downtown area, stadiums, etc. Having the Children's Museum and Aviary so close is wonderful. When it's not gameday, or there isn't some kind of country music tailgate-fest at Heinz Field, being able to enjoy the bars/restaurants of the "Northshore" without having to get in a car and drive is great. I can jog around the Golden Triangle area, around Riverview Park, along the river trails... it's a great spot for recreation as long as some of the rough edges don't get you down.

[mbw5100]

Originally Posted by norcider

The only areas I can think of where I am more vigilant is the intersection of Cedar and E. Ohio, and Federal north of North Avenue. That's to say I am just more careful of the people around me. Most the the "lower" North Side is really tame these days, it's nothing like it was 15-20 years ago. Good luck.

Regarding the intersection of Cedar and E. Ohio: Is that because of the proximity to Allegheny Commons East? What is the status of that, anyway?

[eschaton]

Generally speaking, this is the consensus:

Allegheny West - 100% safe, except insofar as the business district on Western Avenue may attract some petty nuisance crime.

Manchester - Since it lacks a business district, it's mostly a quiet residential area. The northern portions of the neighborhood (above Decatur Street) are still a bit blighted and have some gang violence.

Central North Side - Mexican War Streets area is generally considered mostly safe, with the best areas after that the upper blocks of Buena Vista and Monterey. Historically the further to the east you got from there the worse it was considered until you got to Federal Street, with the area to the east of Federal not considered as bad. But there has been a lot of flipping of homes in this area (and new construction) so I think it's less the case now. IIRC while Boyle was known for having some drug trade issues, it was never a gang zone.

Deutschtown. Considerably more crime issues than the areas listed above, but this is mostly due to having a much stronger business district along East Ohio, which has historically acted as a sort of nexus of vice activity throughout the North Side. It can get much quieter as soon as you're one block off of East Ohio in the western half of the neighborhood. East Deutschtown has more localized issues with drug addicts (similar to any poor mostly white neighborhood) but it's not a magnet for trouble in the same way.

[PGH423]

Originally Posted by RogersParkTransplant

Yes -- what norcider is referring to is really a smallish patch right around the Crazy Mocha and the library -- we go there all the time too. It's a weird mix of drug dealers and young professionals, but everyone gets along funnily enough. You have to have basic street smarts and a degree of comfort with petty nonviolent crime, and (sadly) you have to accept that some of the young people dealing drugs occasionally get shot, but it's exceedingly rare for this to affect the average person on the street. The new construction townhouses on Federal that are just a block or two past the library sell for over $400k and often to young families who are quite happy there.

Here's a nice listing that I would consider a "detached row house" -- it's in East Deutschtown, and a little slow to sell probably because Spring Garden Ave is a bit of a busy street, but it's still a gorgeous listing in a great location. Is this what you had in mind, more or less? I'm happy to throw around more suggestions later on, but in general you should have no problem finding something quite nice for $350k.

838 Spring Garden Ave, Central North Side, PA 15212 - realtor.com®

Oh that looks attached to one of the houses. I meant a stand alone home but still with that kind of architecture. I meant something like this although I don't need a house that's that huge and am not in this price range.
924 Beech Ave, Pittsburgh, PA 15233 - realtor.com®

I have severe asthma and am affected by the smoking of the person in the neighboring unit in my townhouse community (where I'm renting). They smoke and it's practically like they're in the same room. So I really didn't want to be attached to another house. (This is an issue for my well-being not a rant against smokers.)