Property Tax Relief on the way (the good and bad news) (Lebanon: for sale, rentals)

[Merge]

Originally Posted by right-here-i-say

I guess we can't try to improve the state.

You're welcome to try to improve the state. But proposals should be backed up by an elucidation of expectations. How is giving property taxes to Western Pennsylvanians going to "improve the state"?

[right-here-i-say]

Originally Posted by Merge

You're welcome to try to improve the state. But proposals should be backed up by an elucidation of expectations. How is giving property taxes to Western Pennsylvanians going to "improve the state"?

Lower taxes + Low cost housing = Great place to move to. Pretty simple. Also, more money in peoples hands will allow them to purchase more items helping local businesses, who would be able to grow their local companies. Think about it, and extra $1K per year in every home in Allegheny County.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by Merge

The whole issue of property tax relief is becoming a ludicrous cliche. I have a hard time respecting people who can't see how good they have it. You never see these people complain about the extraordinarily low costs of property in the region. Can't you see that the two are inextricably related?

That's an oversimpification. Most of the properties in "good" areas around here do not have "extraordinarily low" property costs (e.g. Squirrel Hill, Fox Chapel, Hampton, Mt Lebanon, etc.). Buy a nice house in one of those areas, let your new school district appeal your assessment up to the purchase price, and then see how you feel about property tax relief.

One of the reasons housing prices are low here is because we have a lot of depressed areas that pull down the average/median house cost when you average it over the entire area.

[right-here-i-say]

It is pretty simple and easy to see. People are building houses on the borders of Allegheny County. Scrapp is right.

Buy a home in Mt Lebanon for $400K, you may be looking at $13,000 per year in property taxes. Buy it in Cranberry, and it might be $5,000. Simple math. When people buy homes, they look at their monthly costs. In this case, the extra monthly cost to live in Allegheny County would be $667.00. That is taxes alone. Surely a lot more than the extra gasoline you would use if driving 65 mph from Cranberry.

[suzeeq521]

But is it really a savings of that much? Someone wouldn't spend that much once you factor in the driving costs? Even with what gas costs these days & the traffic patterns in those 'burbs?

I'm truly asking a question here - I don't own a car and I live in the city, relying totally on the bus. So I really have no idea.

But I do know that when I had a car, there were all kinds of hidden costs for me. Like my insurance, they always asked if I drove more than 25 miles (not sure if it was one way or total) to work - and if the answer was yes, my rates were raised. And other things.

I'm not denying that it would be that big of a savings, I would just like details on it, because it is something I have no experience with.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by suzeeq521

But is it really a savings of that much? Someone wouldn't spend that much once you factor in the driving costs? Even with what gas costs these days & the traffic patterns in those 'burbs?

I'm truly asking a question here - I don't own a car and I live in the city, relying totally on the bus. So I really have no idea.

But I do know that when I had a car, there were all kinds of hidden costs for me. Like my insurance, they always asked if I drove more than 25 miles (not sure if it was one way or total) to work - and if the answer was yes, my rates were raised. And other things.

I'm not denying that it would be that big of a savings, I would just like details on it, because it is something I have no experience with.

Some of the answer would be subjective. Insurance rates are somewhat subjective. My rates as a 48 year old good driver are one thing, but the rates for my friend who's a walking and driving catastrophe would be much higher.

[Merge]

Originally Posted by right-here-i-say

It is pretty simple and easy to see. People are building houses on the borders of Allegheny County. Scrapp is right.

Buy a home in Mt Lebanon for $400K, you may be looking at $13,000 per year in property taxes. Buy it in Cranberry, and it might be $5,000. Simple math. When people buy homes, they look at their monthly costs. In this case, the extra monthly cost to live in Allegheny County would be $667.00. That is taxes alone. Surely a lot more than the extra gasoline you would use if driving 65 mph from Cranberry.

Simple math, eh? Where are you getting your figures from? Source it, rather than simply creating them out of your own head. Show me the $400K house in Cranberry that you'd only pay $5K property tax on... same with the Mt. Lebanon house.

I do understand that Cranberry has lower taxes than Mt. Lebanon, but that's mostly because they haven't updated their tax codes. The whole area is in need of a re-assessment, and soon. They are levying taxes in that area as if it were still the rural 80's. They're in for a rude awakening.

[Merge]

Originally Posted by scrapp

That's an oversimpification. Most of the properties in "good" areas around here do not have "extraordinarily low" property costs (e.g. Squirrel Hill, Fox Chapel, Hampton, Mt Lebanon, etc.). Buy a nice house in one of those areas, let your new school district appeal your assessment up to the purchase price, and then see how you feel about property tax relief.

One of the reasons housing prices are low here is because we have a lot of depressed areas that pull down the average/median house cost when you average it over the entire area.

Areas are considered "good" largely in part due to the quality of the school district. When you look for a house, you take that into account and plan to factor in higher property taxes. I'm a home-owner in a good school district, and we knew we were going to take a hit on taxes... when we decided what we could pay for a house, we included that into our considerations. Any responsible home-buyer should do the same. You should expect that your home will be re-assessed based upon purchase price. There's no other reasonable way to do it. If you bought above your means, then it's your own fault- and you shouldn't be bitching about your tax adjustment. Suck it up- that's the cost of living in that "good area".

[right-here-i-say]

Originally Posted by Merge

Simple math, eh? Where are you getting your figures from? Source it, rather than simply creating them out of your own head. Show me the $400K house in Cranberry that you'd only pay $5K property tax on... same with the Mt. Lebanon house.

I do understand that Cranberry has lower taxes than Mt. Lebanon, but that's mostly because they haven't updated their tax codes. The whole area is in need of a re-assessment, and soon. They are levying taxes in that area as if it were still the rural 80's. They're in for a rude awakening.

Just look at howardhanna.com for houses in Cranberry at $400K and houses in Mt Lebanon. The taxes are on the right when you click on a house. You will have to look for houses in Mt Lebanon that sold from 2002 to 2005 due to the base year change. Those people would be paying on the $400K assessment (which would be $13,000 per year).

I don't think the people in Cranberry are in for a rude awakening. They don't have as high of salaries, unfunded pensions, total school rebuilds, pipe replacement, street replacement, etc.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by Merge

You should expect that your home will be re-assessed based upon purchase price. There's no other reasonable way to do it. If you bought above your means, then it's your own fault- and you shouldn't be bitching about your tax adjustment. Suck it up- that's the cost of living in that "good area".

I don't find that comment relevant to supporting your statement about "extraordinarily low" costs of property in the region.


Regarding assessments: I have no problems with a fair market assessment provided that it is applied uniformly to all property owners. Unfortunately, only new home owners get subjected to school district appeals. Long time residents keep their lower non-market value assessments. That's not fair, and in fact it likely violates the Unifority Clause of the PA state constitution. It also isn't fair to homeowners in depressed areas whose property values are falling. It is definitely worth "bitching" about, and is, in fact, the subject of a lawsuit against Allegheny County currently in the PA Supreme Court (the County has already lost in the Court of Common Pleas). See http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07158/792153-85.stm or just search for "Wettick" on the Post Gazette web site.

There is great quote from PA Courts from 1909 often used by lawyers that sums it up:

"While every tax is a burden, it is more cheerfully borne when the citizen feels that he is only required to bear his proportionate share of that burden measured to that of his neighbor. This is not an idle thought in the mind of the taxpayer, nor is it a mere speculative theory advocated by learned writers on the subject, but it is a fundamental principle written into the constitutions and statues of almost every state in this country."

Delawre, Lackawanna & Western Railroad Co's Tax Assessment (No 1) 224 Pa. 240, 243, 73 A. 429, 430 (1909).