The neighborhood that used to be next to downtown (Pittsburgh: home, elementary school)

[BrianTH]

This is an alley shot from 1950, and I guess what they meant by "grim alleys and tortured buildings":

[stburr91]

Brian,

I think much of it would've never survived the last 50 years, and most of it would be gone today no matter what.

Just for reference.



Hardly the kind of neighborhoods that would attract much of a tax base.

[steindle]

Originally Posted by stburr91

Hardly the kind of neighborhoods that would attract much of a tax base.

Those might as well be photos of Lawrenceville or the South Side, both of which have "attract[ed]...a tax base." I don't see your point.

[pman]

I disagree stburr, those are the neighborhoods that have done well over the years and you're first photo probably should be your first clue why you're so wrong. look at the location. not sure what your second photo is supposed to mean, people are moving to small streets all the time. the last photo is also a good example of what a waste it was, that street would be an excellent smaller redevelopment opportunity. what actually happened was the removal of vitality in exchange for a solution that kep the area dead. sure, if they'd redeveloped the property into an extension of downtown our argument might be a lot different..but even then, that's nothing that couldn't have happened without the massive federally funded razing.

Originally Posted by steindle

Those might as well be photos of Lawrenceville or the South Side, both of which have "attract[ed]...a tax base." I don't see your point.

exactly

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by pman

and what are the housing conditions in projects and the hill today? I think it's somewhat shortsighted to say, housing conditions were substandard, so those people should have been removed. as has been noted repeatedly in this thread and mirrored all across the country, neighborhoods that were not razed, more often than not, actually ended up better off. would it have been good for baltimore if they'd razed fell's point? remember, it was robert moses attempt to raze a neighborhood very much like the lower hill that really gave birth to the opposition movement against these awful ideas....the neighborhood was a "slum with substandard housing" called greenwich village whose fight was aided by a woman named Jane Jacobs. the fact is, the long term consequences of this massive redevelopment scheme were much worse than if the neighborhood would have been left alone, allowing the market to determine which buildings could be saved and which should be replaced (this happened in old city in philadelphia, fell's point in baltimore, the north end in boston, etc). do you think the housing conditions in the hill are the greatest today? are poor urban neighborhoods not associated with health problems today? fail.

I never said it was the best idea I ever heard of in "Urban Renewal"! IN fact, I have made several posts to the contrary. But facts are facts. Many of these homes would have been very costly to "rehab". People are posting on here as if this area, before it was razed, was some sort of middle class area.

I also think Pgh did need an events center like the Civic Arena.

Once more (for the last time; in the future I'll refer to my previous posts), this was a poorly done urban renewal project.

[stburr91]

Originally Posted by steindle

Those might as well be photos of Lawrenceville or the South Side, both of which have "attract[ed]...a tax base." I don't see your point.

I'm not sure I would say that's what the South Side looked like, much of the housing was built to a higher standard. As for Lawrenceville, it hasn't come back fully, and won't without razing the industrial sites in it, and the strip. How much of a tax base was in Lawrenceville for much of the last 50 years?

Originally Posted by pman

if they'd redeveloped the property into an extension of downtown our argument might be a lot different..

I think that was what they hoped would ultimately happen, but as I said, Pittsburgh entered into a 60 year decline, and nothing in the lower hill was going thrive. The fact that the substandard housing is now gone, means that it still can be developed into an extension of downtown.

[simetime]

Originally Posted by steindle

Those might as well be photos of Lawrenceville or the South Side, both of which have "attract[ed]...a tax base." I don't see your point.

Actually it looks like buildings that are (were) standing on the middle Hill on Webster Ave. Which by the way is untouched by redevelopment

[BrianTH]

More images from the 1950s:

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by stburr91

Brian, I think much of it would've never survived the last 50 years, and most of it would be gone today no matter what. . . . Hardly the kind of neighborhoods that would attract much of a tax base.

I really couldn't disagree more. Those neighborhoods don't even look that bad as of the 1950s, and similar neighborhoods in similarly prime locations in other cities--and for that matter Pittsburgh--have attracted a lot of investment in recent decades.

These weren't upper-middle-class-to-elite buildings, but they weren't useless shacks either. It actually is very similar to the South Side, which was also a working-to-lower-middle-class place at the time.

[simetime]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Excuse me? I could probably create a poll of the Pittsburgh population, and I have no doubt that The Hill and Homewood would be listed as the two most blighted and dangerous hoods in the city.

It's funny you think I don't venture into the city's grittier areas. Have you seen my blog?

Also, I live in McKees Rocks, a "safe area of the burbs."

The South Side has been revitalized, and so has probably 75% of the North Side. Where is the revitalization in The Hill happening? Nowhere, because it has a notorious reputation for crime and blight.

Northview hts? There is STill a significant gang probelm on the Northside and on parts of the southside. Homewood I would contend does has some of those same probelms but the Hill as a whole does not. I think that you are also included uptown which most Hill residents don't

I guess to prove your point when I moved to the Hill (1974) there were only three or four white famillies there, I went to school with their kids Herron Hill, Schenley/Brashear now there are quite a few there.
Whites were routinely harrasshed on the Hill back then, now no one pays them any attention. Try going through Homewood at night