Philadelphia area ferry service (York, Franklin: living, costs, buses)
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I don't get it. Do you really think that people in Boston, New York and Seattle are just out on the open deck of a ferry in January . . . like it's some kind of WWII troop transport?
By that logic why would anyone waste time driving to PATCO and waiting for a train when there's a perfectly good bridge to drive your car over? Of course, commuting isn't that black & white and a lot of different factors go into people's decision making process. The price of fuel. Applicable tolls. Availability and cost of parking. The amount of time driving takes vs. the alternatives. The comparable levels of stress offered by each mode.
So, if you live in Woodbury and work at CHOP and want to drive over the Walt you're looking at an average weekday commute of an hour from door to desk. $5 for the toll. If your car gets 40mpg then it's $1 for gas each way (full cost accounting is around $.52/mile or ~$7) and let's call it $7 for parking. @22 workdays per month that's $308 just in direct, out-of-pocket costs. That's also about 44 hours of your life in traffic per month. (according to AAA estimates of what it actually costs to operate a car your monthly expenses are more like $572)
So, let's not drive to work. Let's just drive to PATCO. The are a few stations that are of similar distance but during the AM rush it's easier and cheaper to get to Ferry Ave. So, 30 minutes drive to Ferry Ave - $1 for gas. Get on PATCO, $2.25 to 8th & Market. Parking, waiting for train, getting to 8th & Market, we'll call that 20 minutes. Transfer to El, transfer to Trolley, walk 3 blocks, we'll be generous and call that 20 minutes. You buy the discounted paper transfer from PATCO to save money so that's $1.40 each way. Your monthly costs are $205 and your commute time is 1:10 per day or 48 hours per month.
Or, this new ferry comes along . . . You drive 10 minutes to the Ferry terminal. Let's say it takes you 10 minutes to park, walk up to the ferry, wait for the departure. The ride takes 20 minutes. You have to walk 5 minutes to your office. 45 minutes per day. We'll use the more expensive NY fare regime and call it $280 for a monthly pass + parking and 33 hours of your life.
PATCO doesn't run over the Walt Whitman or Betsy Ross Bridges. When the ferries went away there weren't 100,000 cars a day going over the Ben Franklin Bridge and it didn't take 30 minutes at rush hour to drive from Collingswood to 6th & Market.
The ferries in Camden were fed by all of the rail lines in South Jersey. When those rail lines then connected with the new Bridge Speedline the demand for the ferries diminished. What you're missing here is that those rail lines no longer exist to feed the Bridge Speedline with passengers and that PATCO's ridership is now constrained by the size of their parking lots and by the amount of office space within walking distance of their CC stations (hint: the employment core of CC/UC has shifted west since PATCO was built) One of those old SJ rail routes was partially incorporated into the PATCO expansion in 1969 - and another one came back in the form of the RiverLINE but that still leaves 4 routes missing. Those lots aren't full now because we're in a period of high unemployment but as recently as 5 years ago they were full.
I can kinda get that it's hard to wrap your head around if you've never used a similar service before but this discussion is more or less like every new light rail line that's been built in this country in the last 15 years . . . there's no demand . . . no one is going to ride it
Remember 10 years ago when people said "no one is going to ride to RiverLINE" and now it's operating at capacity - with ridership now being constrained by service cuts and the mostly single-track design.
What market would you serve that wouldn't be a duplication of service that's already there and isn't at capacity? I can see where ferries work, but I can also see that they probably wouldn't be competitive when the entire region is centered around existing infrastructure that isn't even at capacity yet.
And yeah. Whatever my own prejudices I don't think people will choose to take a ferry when they could drive their own car or take a train. Having them be a part of the existing commuting patterns is one thing, but introducing them into a region that would not be used to taking them is another.
I put this together hastily. The times are based on other 'fast ferry' services of 25-30 knots. Fares would be similar to regional rail fares.
It's based on 4 routes which would take 10-12 boats to run an effective rush hour service. The New Jersey stops + Bridesburg would all have to be supported by park & rides.
I marked landings at Christian St., Camden Waterfront and NoLibs/Sugarhouse that would probably not be part of rush hour service or, if they were, would be part of a separate, smaller circulator service and would probably be added as a later phase.
I could see a ferry going to the Navy Yards but the I think a ferry going all the all way to University City is a bit of a stretch. I just can't see people who normally take the Patco across the Walt Whitman Bridge would instead take the ferry. Even though it might not be necessary true, most people will still see it as "Why would I go around the city on a slow boat, when I can just go through the city on a faster train." I could almost guarantee that would be mindset of most people.
A ferry going straight across the Delaware River from the Camden waterfront to the Philly waterfront would be good for tourist/recreational commuters but I think it would have low ridership for work commuters. Transportation in that area isn't really that good for getting people where they need to go. It could work if that waterfront light rail line ever gets built because it could connect to other lines.
What market would you serve that wouldn't be a duplication of service that's already there and isn't at capacity?
Sorry, we're clearly talking past each other. What Gloucester County rail line that goes to University City (or Old City for that matter) would this ferry be a duplication of?
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I can see where ferries work, but I can also see that they probably wouldn't be competitive when the entire region is centered around existing infrastructure that isn't even at capacity yet.
What infrastructure is not at capacity? Are you talking about the Gloucester Co. rail line that doesn't exist? Or are you talking about the Walt Whitman Bridge and it's 120,000 cars and level of service somewhere between E and F?
And yeah. Whatever my own prejudices I don't think people will choose to take a ferry when they could drive their own car or take a train. Having them be a part of the existing commuting patterns is one thing, but introducing them into a region that would not be used to taking them is another.
ha. there it is. it hasn't been done therefore it can't work
OK, I appreciate the feedback so answer me this . . . why do people take a train when they can drive?
I just can't see people who normally take the Patco across the Walt Whitman Bridge would instead take the ferry
PATCO does not go over the Walt.
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"Why would I go around the city on a slow boat, when I can just go through the city on a faster train." I could almost guarantee that would be mindset of most people.
Well, first, no one is suggesting that you go around the city on a boat.
Second, there is no train from NJ that goes through the city.
PATCO averages ~28mph.
SEPTA RR averages ~25mph.
Average rush hour speeds on Center City expressways are 10-15mph.
Surface streets can be even slower.
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A ferry going straight across the Delaware River from the Camden waterfront to the Philly waterfront would be good for tourist/recreational commuters but I think it would have low ridership for work commuters.
Right. Because not many people live or work on the Camden waterfront. Not yet anyway. Which is why, per the OP, i suggested that not be part of any regular commuter service.
The East River Ferry absolutely goes to Manhattan, it just makes stops first.
And there has been tons of waterfront development right around the southern of the two ferry stops in Greenpoint (though they may be selling that as "North Williamsburg" at this point - lol), and lots more planned/ongoing development near the northern stop.
Williamsburg for sure. Greenpoint's only Ferry stop is at India St. and most people who could walk to it live just as close to the G.
I'm surprised you can't tell the difference between a transit/circulator service (which is what that East River Ferry is) and a commuter service (which is what i'm proposing.) It's kind of like saying "we already have the 34 trolley. why would anyone ride the R3?"
In the long run the East River Ferry might be a good development tool but it has to last through the recession first. But to say that this is valuable to commuters in any way, shape or form is a joke. The Williamsburg stops might have a a few outposts of development but they're not residential or commercial centers. Only the DUMBO stop could sorta fall into one of those categories.
But if I want to get to Wall St. from Greenpoint It would take me 20 minutes and 4 stops. If you don't work on Wall St. why in the world would you go downtown? If you work on Wall St. why in the world would you live in Greenpoint?
If I wanted to go from Greenpoint it would be 3 stops and 15 minutes but then I'm on the East Side at 34th St. Who goes there? I'm just saying, if you can already walk to the subway and it will get you to a more convenient place than taking the ferry then what's the point of taking the ferry?
You're talking an urban shuttle service that's targeting a market that does not own cars but who also have various alternative options available.
I'm talking about a suburban commuter service that's targeting a market who will park & ride and whose alternative options both take longer and cost more.
I think the concept is interesting and even on the schukyll but am not sure there is demand. To me there would need to be many connections and then connections to other rapid forms and work with Septa and PATCO NJT etc for fare cards not to mention they need more than 3 boats
So stops at Market, South, Greys Ferry, Art Museum (Water works)
Then at Navy Yard etc.
But still seems not realistic as much as I find it intelectually interesting
Well, first, no one is suggesting that you go around the city on a boat.
Second, there is no train from NJ that goes through the city.
But there is still a trains that run through Center City. I think you're missing the point. It's the perception of it. Most people would rather just transfer from the Patco to the Market-Frankford line to get to University City than go all the way around South Philly just to get to University City.
PATCO averages ~28mph.
SEPTA RR averages ~25mph.
Average rush hour speeds on Center City expressways are 10-15mph.
Surface streets can be even slower.
I never said I agree with that personally. All I said was that many people are going to see the ferry as being slower than the train. Here is what I wrote.
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Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly
Even though it might not be necessary true, most people will still see it as "Why would I go around the city on a slow boat, when I can just go through the city on a faster train." I could almost guarantee that would be mindset of most people.
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Originally Posted by drive carephilly
Right. Because not many people live or work on the Camden waterfront. Not yet anyway. Which is why, per the OP, i suggested that not be part of any regular commuter service.
I'm not against having a ferry but I think some destination points for the ferry would have extremely low ridership. I'm not saying that all the location spots wouldn't work. All I'm saying is that some areas could have really good ridership while other areas could have really bad ridership.
Sorry, we're clearly talking past each other. What Gloucester County rail line that goes to University City (or Old City for that matter) would this ferry be a duplication of?
How is the ferry any quicker than the infrastructure in place? You would have to go down the Delaware and up the Schuylkill which is hardly direct. Might I add you've never addressed the ice issue.
If it's a "commuter service," by definition, it's "transit."
I guess the $64k question here is: Are our road crossings overtaxed enough at peak hours to make this idea viable? The four cities you cite have either or both of these conditions:
--Sizable commuter populations living across large bodies of water not easily bridged (Boston, Seattle)
--Severe peak-hour congestion on the few road crossings that exist and little to no possibility other road crossings will be added (New York, San Francisco)
The first condition absolutely does not obtain here. Does the second?
Ferries do have the advantage of requiring less in the way of physical plant than road or rail crossings do, so if we do have that bad a congestion problem, they're an easy form of relief to implement.
Williamsburg for sure. Greenpoint's only Ferry stop is at India St. and most people who could walk to it live just as close to the G.
Technically, the stop by East River Park (and everything down to Metropolitan Ave) is in Greenpoint too. And the G is a train that doesn't go into Manhattan, that most people whine about having to rely upon. But now I'm just repeating myself.
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I'm surprised you can't tell the difference between a transit/circulator service (which is what that East River Ferry is) and a commuter service (which is what i'm proposing.) It's kind of like saying "we already have the 34 trolley. why would anyone ride the R3?"
In the long run the East River Ferry might be a good development tool but it has to last through the recession first. But to say that this is valuable to commuters in any way, shape or form is a joke. The Williamsburg stops might have a a few outposts of development but they're not residential or commercial centers. Only the DUMBO stop could sorta fall into one of those categories.
I think maybe you've lost track of who you're talking to/arguing with. The whole thing I was responding to (which was on the other thread) was the statement (not even by you) saying "just like in New York you can take a ferry from Manhattan to Brooklyn. We should be able to go from Philadelphia to Camden". And so then I mentioned that the ferry btw Brooklyn and Manhattan wasn't used much by commuters, even in the areas where people would be most likely to want another option.
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But if I want to get to Wall St. from Greenpoint It would take me 20 minutes and 4 stops. If you don't work on Wall St. why in the world would you go downtown? If you work on Wall St. why in the world would you live in Greenpoint?
If I wanted to go from Greenpoint it would be 3 stops and 15 minutes but then I'm on the East Side at 34th St. Who goes there? I'm just saying, if you can already walk to the subway and it will get you to a more convenient place than taking the ferry then what's the point of taking the ferry?
Believe it or not, a LOT of people who work downtown and in the Financial district, and don't work on Wall Street or even in Finance, live in places like Greenpoint. In increasing numbers. Not to mention the residential population explosion in the Financial district itself. And the East Side of 34th St is where the NYU Hospital complex (my kid was born there!), and lots of jobs, are located. All beside the point though. My only point was that for whatever reason, East River Ferry is not used very much in the presence of other options, even when those options are not the best..
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You're talking an urban shuttle service that's targeting a market that does not own cars but who also have various alternative options available.
I'm talking about a suburban commuter service that's targeting a market who will park & ride and whose alternative options both take longer and cost more.
Well, I was never especially arguing against your proposal, as I think more options are always better, although I do have a few questions about this one's viability.
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