Philadelphia 2035 (Lancaster, York, Riverside: contractors, legal, engineers)

[Cnote11]

Have you ever spoken with actual people in Tokyo? I can guarantee you a large percentage would not rather drive than take public transport, and not for economic reason either. There is a reason there are less cars in Tokyo than there are in Philadelphia, despite the huge population difference. Some of this is economic, some of it is space issues, others are personal. They have pride in their trains for a reason and the culture that revolves around taking the trains. For instance, a large percentage of people in Tokyo highly value walking to their train station in the morning and back home from the train station at night. They believe it inhibits a lazy lifestyle that is brought on by driving cars. There are a billion other examples you would hear.

I live in Center City, so I'm pretty sure I could afford a parking spot in Center City. I've lived in places in Center City that have parking built into the package. I do not know how to drive and I don't really care to learn. I'd rather take the bus with all those low-income people you keep going on about. I'd rather take a bicycle or walk. I'm originally from SE Michigan and I personally despise car culture. I'm very happy to see car sales continuing to drop in Japan, and that the youth happen to have a growing distaste for cars as well. The train culture is a part of why I'm moving there next year. I see the necessity of cars as Duderino points out, but Leon really needs to get a grip in thinking that this American car-centric culture is some type of absolutism.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by Leon2014

Most people would drive in Hong Kong too, with their first class public transport. Except a parking spot anywhere in the business district will run at least $1,000 per month. It's not that people like public transport. They just can't afford anything else.

Just as one shouldn't be too idealistic about public transit, cars also have their limitations, regardless of new technology. Public transit will also make advancements, too. We honestly have no idea what mobility will look like in 50 years.

The bottom line is, regardless of income (even affluent people like to save money), people will by and large take the most efficient and cheapest way to get somewhere possible, and that will absolutely take a variety of forms in the future.

Your personal dismissal of public transportation also does not align with most American's views, as most people would prefer and use more efficient transit options by choice:

New poll finds that people hate traffic, love transit | Rob Perks's Blog | Switchboard, from NRDC

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by Cnote11

Have you ever spoken with actual people in Tokyo? I can guarantee you a large percentage would not rather drive than take public transport, and not for economic reason either. There is a reason there are less cars in Tokyo than there are in Philadelphia, despite the huge population difference. Some of this is economic, some of it is space issues, others are personal. They have pride in their trains for a reason and the culture that revolves around taking the trains. For instance, a large percentage of people in Tokyo highly value walking to their train station in the morning and back home from the train station at night. They believe it inhibits a lazy lifestyle that is brought on by driving cars. There are a billion other examples you would hear.

I live in Center City, so I'm pretty sure I could afford a parking spot in Center City. I've lived in places in Center City that have parking built into the package. I do not know how to drive and I don't really care to learn. I'd rather take the bus with all those low-income people you keep going on about. I'd rather take a bicycle or walk. I'm originally from SE Michigan and I personally despise car culture. I'm very happy to see car sales continuing to drop in Japan, and that the youth happen to have a growing distaste for cars as well. The train culture is a part of why I'm moving there next year. I see the necessity of cars as Duderino points out, but Leon really needs to get a grip in thinking that this American car-centric culture is some type of absolutism.

I don't think Leon even knows that American millenials are trending against cars, driving, and obtaining drivers' licenses as the kind of milestone event that Baby Boomers did. All the city 20somethings I know just don't care about cars.

[Cnote11]

Originally Posted by kyb01

I don't think Leon even knows that American millenials are trending against cars, driving, and obtaining drivers' licenses as the kind of milestone event that Baby Boomers did. All the city 20somethings I know just don't care about cars.

Indeed, hence a renewal in the interest of public transportation. I'm not really sure about the rest of the country, but 20 somethings back in SE Michigan are still hooked on cars to a major degree. This may be because it is SE Michigan and cars are special to the culture, so I don't know how much this generalizes to areas surrounding other big cities, let alone suburban areas. Although, there has been a decent push around Detroit for more public transportation, so even there we see changes, which could be a signal of a shift in the public attitude at large.

[Leon2014]

Originally Posted by Duderino

The bottom line is, regardless of income (even affluent people like to save money), people will by and large take the most efficient and cheapest way to get somewhere possible, and that will absolutely take a variety of forms in the future.

How do I say this politely, this is the biggest pile of horse **** ever.

Human behavior that is based on principles is limited to tiny niches. Since the dawn of time human choices were driven by economics. People have NEVER "by and large take the most efficient and cheapest way" with anything. People have always scaled up their consumption to their means.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by Leon2014

How do I say this politely, this is the biggest pile of horse **** ever.

Human behavior that is based on principles is limited to tiny niches. Since the dawn of time human choices were driven by economics. People have NEVER "by and large take the most efficient and cheapest way" with anything. People have always scaled up their consumption to their means.

Um, what do you think the desire to save money is? Not driven by economics? People are driven by all kinds of things. Yes, there will always be the guy who wants to drive his late-model Bimmer to his downtown job, but that certainly doesn't represent everyone's desire. You nor I can claim to speak for everyone, because everyone's motivations differ. "Human behavior" will never have absolutes.

[rotodome]

I don't think that you guys are necessarily so far off in what you are saying. If driving were more personally expensive to the end user, perhaps by being less or differently subsidized (roads, oil..), or if the physical infrastructure made it less convenient, then more people would likely opt for public transportation vs driving.

[Duderino]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I don't think that you guys are necessarily so far off in what you are saying. If driving were more personally expensive to the end user, perhaps by being less or differently subsidized (roads, oil..), or if the physical infrastructure made it less convenient, then more people would likely opt for public transportation vs driving.

Exactly, and you actually bring up a very good point in terms of "market" pricing.

As it stands, highways/roads have been exponentially more subsidized than public transit for decades. The playing field is not level.

It's laughable when you hear people complain about how public transit is often not economically sustainable when roads have been propped up by government spending with billions and billions of dollars for many years. Without this kind of support, roads, too, would be far from economically sustainable--particularly in far-flung, more rural municipalities with very low tax base density.

Essentially, the American people have been getting a HUGE deal for many years when it comes to driving. Now that it's time to pay the piper in terms of more infrastructure maintenance, we'll definitely have to put much more into the pot (e.g., gas taxes, tolls). I think many are starting to sing a different tune about public transit and its often better value.

[phillies2011]

Originally Posted by Leon2014

How do I say this politely, this is the biggest pile of horse **** ever.

Human behavior that is based on principles is limited to tiny niches. Since the dawn of time human choices were driven by economics. People have NEVER "by and large take the most efficient and cheapest way" with anything. People have always scaled up their consumption to their means.

I know a number of really wealthy people who prefer to walk to work, or take the train, subway, or even bus. I even know people who jog or bike.

There are of course a lot more people who drive to work, but your belief that given the means and opportunity, everyone world drive is incredibly myopic. an increasing percentage of Americans would prefer not to drive and many who currently drive would prefer public transit if it were available to them.

[Cnote11]

Now this will be big

SEPTA Testing New Technology To Replace Token System - FOX 29 News Philadelphia | WTXF-TV