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I was talking specifically of the poor. They mostly don't work and if they do, not hard enough. Their lack is one of character. All their food, medical, transportation, cell phone (in NY), education, housing is paid for. They fail to take advantage of it. They don't try to better themselves.
??? Where do the poor get free transportation? Where do the childless poor get free housing?
The American poor live better than most people in the world and better than the middle-class did in the 1950's. Poverty of the type where people went to bed hungry, couldn't buy new clothes, have a roof over their heads has been eliminated.
They could do with some lessons about frugality. As Calvin Coolidge said, "Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character."
And that's what the poor need most: character.
??? The government definition of "poor" is misleading and useless.
The government says a millionaire launching a not-yet-profitable business is poor, while a minimum wage burger flipper paying half his income to rent a room is not poor
The government definition of "poor" does not consider assets or in-kind freebies (housing, medical)...or anything at all beyond on-the-books cash income. .
Nonsense. When I was growing up, it was commonplace for middleclass families to own summer vacation homes, take vacations, and own boats.
Now these are luxuries that only rich people can afford.
Again, budgeting and planning are useless when one's income doesn't meet basic expenses.
Not when I was a kid. Not in our middle class neighborhood. Boats and vacations are not just for the rich anymore. It's also for those willing to go into debt and be one paycheck away from financial disaster. My observation is that people want things NOW. People are perpetually in debt. As long as you have car payments ( sometimes 2) you are removing substantial $ every month that could be used to build wealth. Add on all the other electronic devices and associated costs and it all adds up. Sure what you make is important, but what you do with what you make is more important. Once you reach a comfortable financial place in life, then indulge yourself within reason.
Last edited by skugelstadt; 02-24-2015 at 10:54 PM..
If you can live on $11,770 a year (poverty line for one person), I'd love to see that budget.
You probably have one or more cost advantages not available to most of the poor. (e.g. no rent or mortgage payment). I don't have an underlying addiction, I spend $1200 a month at any income level.
At one time, due to severe medical reasons I WAS at poverty level, in fact below poverty and on social services when I drained all other funds {which happened really quickly with massive medical bills}. I lost EVERYTHING. And had to start ALL OVER.
I HAD to live on less.**
I think EVERYONE Should be forced {especially our estemed leaders in Washington} to LIVE On poverty for one full year to see what it is really like, and get NO OUTSIDE HELP {like from mom and dad or "uncle Ed"} EXCEPT what the government or local charities provide {soup kitchens, pantries, clothing banks etc}. IT WILL OPEN THEIR EYES.
Here is how i did It {single}
~ I lived in a 1 br cottage with a propane gas wall heater ane electric every thing else.
~ I had one nightlight in the Kit, bath, Br, and I used just one 25 watt bulb lamp and the TV {found curbside} in the LR for light. The kit overhead light only went on if necessary.
~ I cooked food for a week or two and froze/refered the rest for s single-use fo stove/oven and microwaved {found curbside} to reheat.
~I was carefull with the 30 gals of hot water I had on the one-time overnight heatup with electric night rate. ~My electric bill was kept thusly at just $25/m!
~I kept the heat at 52F until the HEAP award came, letting me know what I COULD use to heat the house {in Jan it arrived}. I still never kept it above about 60F. 65F if I had guests. Nights I had an electric blanket to help. ~Thusly my heat was about $400 for the entire year.For about 420 sqft. And it wasn't insulated!
~I shopped with COUPONS {well worth the Sunday paper cost} and SAVED lots of money so I could stretch my food stamps and on occasionally get a nice piece of meat for example.
~ I volunteered at a food bank so I could get a bag of "extras" a month when I needed it.
~I volunteered at a soup kitchen, same same, and so I could "give back".
~I had a phone without long distance on purpose, and to get a "Federal lifeline discount" For emergency nad local calls only.
~I had a checking account without much in it, but I had one. I also had a savings account and saved my $2/week in it, all I could afford to, NOT MUCH, but so I'd have money IN CASE of EMERGENCY {like a new winter coat or new shoes}.
~ I considered it a "treat" to "go blow" $5 a month at the $1 store on 5 ESSENTIALS like toilet paper,toothpaste, and shampoo!
**~THIS WAS In 1997 Money.
I managed, and got myself back upright on my feet once able to and back to work.
I LEARNED how to "do more with FAR LESS" Then. I will always be greatfull fo that learning experience!
Now IF I could get my spouse on board, and learn to leave a few lights offf once in a while!
Oh, well, happy wife, happy life......
??? The government definition of "poor" is misleading and useless.
The government says a millionaire launching a not-yet-profitable business is poor, while a minimum wage burger flipper paying half his income to rent a room is not poor
The government definition of "poor" does not consider assets or in-kind freebies (housing, medical)...or anything at all beyond on-the-books cash income. .
That is exactly why the "poor" aren't poor! They get everything provided to them free, i.e., in-kind. They get some cash for s**ts-and-grins, but most of what they get is in-kind and is not reflected in income. Housing, food stamps, Medicaid, cell phone, electricity and gas, etc. The cash value of their in-kind income is over $50,000 a year. Generally. Theres a lot of variation depending on kids, place of residence, etc.
A millionaire starting a business probably would be poor from an income point of view. He has assets, but he can't eat them, can't drive them, can't vacation on them. His assets are tied up in his business and his income is what the business throws off. Which could be very little at first and in many case stays very little.
If you can save 15K per year, that's $150,000 after a decade, even not including earnings on the money. This brings you to only needing a $150K mortgage for a $300K house. If you start at age 23, this happens at age 33, not 40. You find a $300K house and due to low interest rates your $150K mortgage will be manageable even if your salary is only $55K.
And I am sorry you fear the stock market. Over the long run it is one of the best things you can own. You just have to diversify and not pay high fees or panic-sell when share prices go down.
What in the world makes you think someone coming right out of college can save that much money?
That's close to to $300/wk. In other words, close to 100%, or more than 100%, of what an entry level job pays after health insurance and taxes.
A millionaire starting a business probably would be poor from an income point of view. He has assets, but he can't eat them, can't drive them, can't vacation on them. His assets are tied up in his business and his income is what the business throws off. Which could be very little at first and in many case stays very little.
That would depend on what the business is.
I drive my business assets..........if the business was boats.......yes, they could vacation on them.
And........what if the investment was in a store?????
At one time, due to severe medical reasons I WAS at poverty level, in fact below poverty and on social services when I drained all other funds {which happened really quickly with massive medical bills}. I lost EVERYTHING. And had to start ALL OVER.
I HAD to live on less.**
I think EVERYONE Should be forced {especially our estemed leaders in Washington} to LIVE On poverty for one full year to see what it is really like, and get NO OUTSIDE HELP {like from mom and dad or "uncle Ed"} EXCEPT what the government or local charities provide {soup kitchens, pantries, clothing banks etc}. IT WILL OPEN THEIR EYES.
Here is how i did It {single}
~ I lived in a 1 br cottage with a propane gas wall heater ane electric every thing else.
~ I had one nightlight in the Kit, bath, Br, and I used just one 25 watt bulb lamp and the TV {found curbside} in the LR for light. The kit overhead light only went on if necessary.
~ I cooked food for a week or two and froze/refered the rest for s single-use fo stove/oven and microwaved {found curbside} to reheat.
~I was carefull with the 30 gals of hot water I had on the one-time overnight heatup with electric night rate. ~My electric bill was kept thusly at just $25/m!
~I kept the heat at 52F until the HEAP award came, letting me know what I COULD use to heat the house {in Jan it arrived}. I still never kept it above about 60F. 65F if I had guests. Nights I had an electric blanket to help. ~Thusly my heat was about $400 for the entire year.For about 420 sqft. And it wasn't insulated!
~I shopped with COUPONS {well worth the Sunday paper cost} and SAVED lots of money so I could stretch my food stamps and on occasionally get a nice piece of meat for example.
~ I volunteered at a food bank so I could get a bag of "extras" a month when I needed it.
~I volunteered at a soup kitchen, same same, and so I could "give back".
~I had a phone without long distance on purpose, and to get a "Federal lifeline discount" For emergency nad local calls only.
~I had a checking account without much in it, but I had one. I also had a savings account and saved my $2/week in it, all I could afford to, NOT MUCH, but so I'd have money IN CASE of EMERGENCY {like a new winter coat or new shoes}.
~ I considered it a "treat" to "go blow" $5 a month at the $1 store on 5 ESSENTIALS like toilet paper,toothpaste, and shampoo!
**~THIS WAS In 1997 Money.
I managed, and got myself back upright on my feet once able to and back to work.
I LEARNED how to "do more with FAR LESS" Then. I will always be greatfull fo that learning experience!
Now IF I could get my spouse on board, and learn to leave a few lights offf once in a while!
Oh, well, happy wife, happy life......
Yes, it would be an eye-opening experience if everyone had to experience living at poverty level.
Even so, I'm a little jealous that you had a few things many poor people don't have if they can't afford to live alone. I live in an overcrowded 1-bath house and have NO freezer space, so I cannot cook-and-freeze in bulk. While my income qualifies for lifeline phone and for HEAP, I can't get either because someone else already has lifeline (one per address) and the roommates make me ineligible for HEAP because they earn too much.
I was really tickled last week when I bought a quality used can opener at a thrift store for 99 cents. I had been for years unwilling to spend $5 - $7 for a new one and went through a few cheap dollar store can openers before dollar stores quit carrying them.
Yes, it would be an eye-opening experience if everyone had to experience living at poverty level.
Even so, I'm a little jealous that you had a few things many poor people don't have if they can't afford to live alone. I live in an overcrowded 1-bath house and have NO freezer space, so I cannot cook-and-freeze in bulk. While my income qualifies for lifeline phone and for HEAP, I can't get either because someone else already has lifeline (one per address) and the roommates make me ineligible for HEAP because they earn too much.
I was really tickled last week when I bought a quality used can opener at a thrift store for 99 cents. I had been for years unwilling to spend $5 - $7 for a new one and went through a few cheap dollar store can openers before dollar stores quit carrying them.
LOL......I remember one year what I really wanted for Christmas was a can opener.
Living within your means is an idea propagated mostly by people with the means to live. I remember a time when I did not have the means so I took a poorly paid job on a defunct dairy farm. Being in that year's green hay was the hardest work I ever did for the least amount of money. That cured me of the romance of farming forever. The inevitable barn fire cured the owner as well.
I suggest that any young couple get as good an education as possible while minimizing college loans as much as possible. After they graduate from programs that have decent opportunities for post college work one of them should be in private sector management going for the big bucks and the other in a government agency like Homeland Security or the IRS that will never pay as much but will have a very good pension attached. This is just another form of diversifying their investment in themselves.
Knowing how the system actually works and making smart decisions on that knowledge will always yield more then "living within your means" or "hard work".
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