Doctors fire families who refuse vaccines (infants, son, 10 year old, husband)
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You are welcome to think he is stupid. I find that attitude to be short-sighted and not considering a number of complex ethical issues (which I am also welcome to do and actually think that discussion would be interesting and pertinent to the OP). This is an issue that faces more than just a handful of pediatricians and their patients.
I do understand from your posts that you find choice to be of paramount importance. Just because other people think there are other important factors to be considered in addition to this doesn't mean they don't see the big picture (as defined by you). I'm reluctant to ask anything, as up thread when I asked you to clarify something, you brought up a different thread.
Despite the tone of your responses to me, I am not looking to argue with you. I don't carry a grudge from thread to thread. But you can't have it both ways - being confrontational and borderline insulting to people who disagree with you while also saying everyone is welcome to choose whatever works for them.
Well, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that doctor would mind me insulting him. If you see the big picture than you do, I only stated that I see it. You can state that as well. You can also tell me that you think I'm wrong about my opinion. I like it free like that. I have no issues with it.
Yes, I do think choice in our country is of paramount importance. On both ends. Where there is a doctor firing for the un vaccinated there will a doctor welcoming his patients. This is the way I want it to stay.
not just one doctor but an increasing number of them
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
I just think that he has probably become a bitter doctor and is upset with patients not doing as he says. This is a red flag for me with any doctor. I simply don't believe that the risk of a child with one of those illnesses in the vaccines and a newborn catching it from him is a high enough risk for him to validate firing patients. It simply tells me that he is a doctor with the my way or the high way attitude and doesn't quite realize that even doctors make bad decisions in the name of good medicine. The prescribe wrong doses of meds, wrong meds, don't get to the root of the problem Doesn't seem he would spend more than 5 min. talking to me and wouldn't care what I said anyway.
This doctor seems to quick to judgment for me. What is he going to do with a kid who has an egg allergy? Not see him for the principle of the whole thing? Just a man with a God complex to me. Thinks he is always correct, gets huffy if you ask questions about meds, side effects, telling him what you think it might be would be a night mare. No thanks. I don't like those doctors.
What in the B## js are you talking about?? What bitter doctor--this article is about an increasing number of doctors--not one "my way or the highway bitter one." Of course doctors ask about egg allergies--sheesh--How do you know that these many doctors would only spend 5 minutes??? You are flinging insinuations, convoluting others posts, and trying to make simple things complex. I am sure these doctors have a variety of personalities and bedside manners. Talk about generalizations.
Well, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think that doctor would mind me insulting him. If you see the big picture than you do, I only stated that I see it. You can state that as well. You can also tell me that you think I'm wrong about my opinion. I like it free like that. I have no issues with it.
Yes, I do think choice in our country is of paramount importance. On both ends. Where there is a doctor firing for the un vaccinated there will a doctor welcoming his patients. This is the way I want it to stay.
Which is why I don't have a problem with a doctor firing certain patients. It's not like the patient will have to go without medical care. What I take issue with it you saying that those who don't agree with you are "stupid" and don't see the big picture. It is rude, insulting, and not at all necessary.
What in the B## js are you talking about?? What bitter doctor--this article is about an increasing number of doctors--not one "my way or the highway bitter one." Of course doctors ask about egg allergies--sheesh--How do you know that these many doctors would only spend 5 minutes??? You are flinging insinuations, convoluting others posts, and trying to make simple things complex. I am sure these doctors have a variety of personalities and bedside manners. Talk about generalizations.
Are they going to make exceptions and see patients that cannot get the vaccines? If so then, how could you argue that the newborns might catch the diseases the vaccines cover? Is there not the same risk for those who simply cannot attain a vaccine? Is that doctor not worried about the newborns getting ill from the kid with the allergy to eggs? It's the same risk. That was my point and it was about that argument.
What? No doctors are bitter? Anywhere? No doctors have a bad attitude? Wow, you mean doctors are not like the rest of this population? Closer to God are they? To professional? There are even doctors that do things they get arrested for, why couldn't there be doctors that have an attitude I wouldn't tolerate when dealing with my own health care? Why couldn't there be several in every town?
The implications of doctors customizing patients isn't that simple to me. Either is insurance companies charging fat people more money or dropping cancer patients, or the welfare dept. fining people with fat kids. None of that is simple. Real people are involved. It's hurtful as well to be on the other end of it. I don't have to be one to know it would suck to be in that position as a human being. I think it's dangerous to think of it as simple. If you don't like that then keep your own simple ideals about it. I don't care at all.
There are doctors that won't take old people because they are to much work, they want easy money. That sucks, and tells me a little about their personality. Older people now have a harder time finding a doctor.
Do you know the main reason when questioned about why they chose to go into medicine? Money! So why on earth wouldn't I shop around for a doctor that I think cares more about people? I shop in the stores I think are the most honest to the customer. I buy cars from people I think won't rip me off. Yes, I think it's telling a lot about a doctor that tailors his practice to certain people. Lack of confidence is one.
Some will love it, so what is your problem with my opinion? What, I can't have one because it doesn't agree with all of yours? Isn't that funny seeing the topic we are discussing.
If I generalize in your opinion that is just your opinion. I can think a doctor is stupid for not accepting patients without vaccines if I want to. I won't go to one like that, I think it's stupid to do. I feel they are closed minded and that isn't the kind of care I want.
You can go to them, you can go and feel great about it, what is odd to me is why you all care if I don't?
Last edited by PoppySead; 02-15-2012 at 08:52 PM..
Which is why I don't have a problem with a doctor firing certain patients. It's not like the patient will have to go without medical care. What I take issue with it you saying that those who don't agree with you are "stupid" and don't see the big picture. It is rude, insulting, and not at all necessary.
I said people who jump on a bandwagon aren't seeing the big picture in my opinion. I don't think that is rude, or insulting and if you don't think it's necessary for me to say then you can think it but applying it will be a different story. I said "I thought a doctor that would fire patients for not vaccinating on his schedule or not at all is stupid in my opinion." I wasn't aware that he was on here, am I wrong?
As long as you don't transmit your bad eating habits to your children I guess the doctors wouldn't have an issue with it but if you do there could be an issue if doctors are going to start firing patients or reporting them to child welfare when they see fit. I guess it depends on what doctor you go to and his ideas of good parenting and child care. I'm not stupid enough to think that this attitude would stop at communicable diseases.
This was in response to me pointing out that unhealthy eating is not comparable to not vaccinating. You were referring to me, not the doctor.
Well, that is what I'm referring to as missing the big picture. Say, chemo meds are in short supply, and you have a woman who use to smoke but is now a mom and doesn't who has cancer. You also have a child or parent with cancer who never smoked a day in their life. Who gets the medicine when their is only enough for one of them? These are the kinds of events that happen because people don't look at the big picture.
What if you have someone who drinks beer, a lot maybe, maybe not but ends up needing a liver. You have someone who hasn't, needs the liver. What do you do. Then there is the unfortunate trickle down. The kid that needs chemo but who's parents smoked in the home. Then the kids who's parents didn't make a bad decision to smoke in the home. Who gets the meds if they are running out?
These are all real life scenarios. The same premise is used. It's endless. How can you make one decision like that without the other?
You are wrong if you think it doesn't all boil down to who the majority thinks deserves help. It does, and it can be scary. I won't participate. It's all or nothing for me. That is the big picture behind the choice to fire patients, or deny coverage, or help to those who have made bad decisions in their lives. Even if they've changed, it's always their with them.
I just don't agree with the premise on which to give or not give people care. Even if I am not the smoker, drinker, or anti vacciner. Maybe you don't understand where I'm coming from but that's ok, as long as choice still stands and people like you who don't think of the big picture don't start making it fact. It's ok if some doctor wants to choose patients but if it becomes a law then that is a problem. Things progress. That is what age has taught me.
again, you are talking about me here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
I said people who jump on a bandwagon aren't seeing the big picture in my opinion. I don't think that is rude, or insulting and if you don't think it's necessary for me to say then you can think it but applying it will be a different story. I said "I thought a doctor that would fire patients for not vaccinating on his schedule or not at all is stupid in my opinion." I wasn't aware that he was on here, am I wrong?
You implied that I am stupid for seeing obesity as being different than a communicable disease, and you flat out said that I don't see the big picture. Rude, and possibly even against the TOS.
That's right. The risk of getting the disease is not that great, because the rest of us have vaccinated our children against it.
Eh careful there; cause unless the majority of the posters here have female children of a sexual maturity age and have for a LONG time; then nope not the case for the va'c I refuse to give my girls. (Gardisil)
Are you actually claiming the rate of side effects from vaccination, including death, are equal to the rate of death from the disease????
IN some cases yes.
I have 4 rotten stinkin teenaged girls (13,14,15,17) none of them have ever recieved a flu shot, pneumonia shot, or the Gardisil shot; despite what our Ped recommends.
Yes pneumonia is deadly, but the shot only prevents a very minute number of strains out of over 600 types, the flu shot has a BAD history in our family of making you sicker than normal with the flu, and Gardisil is too new for me to take chances with my girls and their future children.
Some people think we are nutso for not giving those shots; but it works for us.
This was in response to me pointing out that unhealthy eating is not comparable to not vaccinating. You were referring to me, not the doctor.
again, you are talking about me here.
You implied that I am stupid for seeing obesity as being different than a communicable disease, and you flat out said that I don't see the big picture. Rude, and possibly even against the TOS.
You just want to argue with me and I'm not going to argue with you. I have my opinions and you have yours. If you do see what I see then no problem, if you don't then it shouldn't make any difference to you what I think. Again, no problem. I wasn't trying to insult you personally, they were my general thoughts on the subject. I have my view and you have yours. I'm done being lead down this path your creating. Continue on without me. I'm agreeing on disagreeing, you can or not but I'm done. I don't want this to turn into a personal war with you. That isn't my intension so you will have to continue on without a response from me on the subject. I've said enough on the topic, you know my opinions by now. Sorry if I've upset you.
So will the government require anyone entering the country to also have all of these vaccines?
Personally I would prefer that a doctor work to make parents more secure about getting the vaccines rather than ignoring any concerns they may have and firing them. And the main reason they do so many vaccines at once is because there is a get 'em while they're there mentality. Children DO have reactions to vaccines and if they get 5 at a time you can't be sure which one they are reacting to. I can't imagine why spacing out vaccines is such a problem for doctors or other parents. I also find it hard to believe that doctors anywhere are lying about children having allergies so the parents can get around a school rule. People use religious exemptions and the doctor doesn't have anything to do with that.
And finally - people who don't do certain vaccines don't make that decision based on the fact that since you're doing it their child will be safe. They do it because they don't feel the risk of the disease is that big. Whether you agree with this or not, that is the reason many skip certain vaccinations.
I know we're supposed to be talking about "firing" patients, but I do feel a need to comment on this. The reasons parents refuse vaccination are legion. Just look at the anti-vax comments on this very thread.
It is not true that the reason so many vaccines are given at once is b/c there is a get'em while they're here mentality. It is because there are a lot of vaccines to get started in infancy. If you spread them out the kids are unprotected longer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabinerose
I know the conversation has gone on to a vaccine discussion, but I am going to comment on the practice of keeping pediatrician offices "clean" when mixing children with contagious diseases and children there for well child checks.
Our old pediatrician office would do well child checks from open to lunch time and them would schedule illness cases after that. If an "emergency" visit was needed by a sick child during the morning hours, they had a seperate enterance and a room specifically for the sick child to be seen in.
I liked this practice and (personally) do not understand why my healthy baby was in the same waiting room with the little girl who was obviously running a fever and vomitting (this was before they restructured their practice).
My office has sick and well waiting areas, though those boundaries are not always respected and the front desk staff cannot be expected to be a "police force". I remember being shocked that a high school kid with potential pertussis was sitting on the well side with the newborns. I said I thought I'd find him on the sick side. The mother replied that it wasn't for sure he had pertussis!
Quote:
Originally Posted by theS5
Do you know what they call the person who graduated last in their third world country medical school? Doctor.
If s/he passed the boards and fulfilled all the othe requirements to get a license.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave5150
Or its not a particularly bad disease. There seems to be more vaccines created simply because the illness is inconvenient or troublesome. The chicken pox vaccine for example. Yes children die from the chicken pox. But its an amount thats hardly worth talking about. I have had the chicken pox vaccine but thats only because by the age of 16 I had not come in contact with it. Some parents feel that building a natural immunity from contact is better than a vaccine. So if your child can just get chicken pox from the neighbor and move on, then so be it. Of course children should be vaccinated again polio mumps etc. But some are extraneous almost.
If it was your kid, it would be worth talking about. The thing is, you can't know for sure if your kid will be one who gets a mild case of cpx and barely knows s/he is sick, or a severe case causing hospitalization and possibly death. Just b/c parents "feel" that natural immunity is better doesn't mean they are correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppySead
Maybe only the 3rd world docs would see the unvaccinated. lol You could start matching everyone up with what everyone thinks they deserve.
Actually, most third world docs are probably very pro-immunization. They've actually seen the harm these diseases can cause.
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not just one doctor but an increasing number of them
