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I have noticed that there are a myriad of different kinds of parents posting here. Married, divorced, stay at home, working moms, single moms, moms of children with special needs, etc. And ALL different kinds of kids, too many to name. I really don't believe there is a single correct pattern for every parent to follow with every child, unless the world was full of Stepford children and Stepford mothers. Some things simply don't work with some children. I can respect people's differences, but outside of circumstances of abuse or neglect, I wouldn't tell anyone they are a "bad parent" because they do something in a way I wouldn't.
I hope I wouldn't say it either. But I would be thinking it. That si sort of my point. The bag of decent techniques is big. So there are a lot of right and good things people might do. But that doesn't mean just because a well intentioned person does something that it IS good. There are things that people do that are damaging to kids.
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I think it's pretty safe to say that most of us are in the parenting forum because we take our jobs as parents seriously and we care about our children. It's hard not to get defensive when someone implies otherwise.
I am blessed without that problem! I remember it though when I first started the forum scene back before there were http forums. I went for help to a marriage forum and got my butt handed to me. That was quite an experience.
In my happy little world that lives no where in my mind, people WOULDN'T be defensive because just as attacks are an impediment to understanding, so too is defensiveness. You cannot make a good judgement of the advice you are being given if you are busy defending.
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Although, I have noticed the posts seeking validation, not opinions or advice. If I post something seeking validation, I don't think I would be too quick to get upset that everyone doesn't agree with me. Of course, some people won't.
I have a lot of respect for friendly debate, even disagreements, which I believe we have had in the past. It's never gotten nasty or insulting though, which I always appreciate.
Eh for me, the way I speak does tend to offend people, regardless of my intentions. But like you, I enjoy debate.
Agreed. There are things that make me itch, and things I can't imagine doing, but "bad parent" is a really extreme term and I'm uncomfortable applying it most of the time.
I think one of the things that gets the ire level up is when people kind of skirt the "bad parent" charge and phrase it "all the <families who have done whatever> I know have screwed up kids." To trot out a shopworn example, visit a homeschool debate. Invariably someone announces "I know 327 homeschoolers and they're all undersocialized".
I am cracking up because that charge is leveled often based on a sample set of one or two.
Agreed. There are things that make me itch, and things I can't imagine doing, but "bad parent" is a really extreme term and I'm uncomfortable applying it most of the time.
I think one of the things that gets the ire level up is when people kind of skirt the "bad parent" charge and phrase it "all the <families who have done whatever> I know have screwed up kids." To trot out a shopworn example, visit a homeschool debate. Invariably someone announces "I know 327 homeschoolers and they're all undersocialized". It's a difficult job not hearing "ipso facto, all homeschoolers are undersocialized (and you're a bad parent for making that damaging choice)", especially from voices with which a poster may already have past history. And with that sort of interchange, implication/inference becomes a plausible deniability issue, and occasionally a weaseling or backpedaling issue, and things almost invariably end up requiring the donning of flame-proof undies and a large supply of Excedrin Migraine with a Macallan chaser for our fair Miss Julia.
I know this is off topic but, in reality, just the demographics of home schoolers would indicate educational success. Given that the majority of homeschoolers are middle class two parent families, home schooling should deliver results. Of course I have a sister and a neighbor who homeschooled with disasterous results.... (Actually true but I'm being sarcastic because of your reference to personal experience)
I know this is off topic but, in reality, just the demographics of home schoolers would indicate educational success. Given that the majority of homeschoolers are middle class two parent families, home schooling should deliver results. Of course I have a sister and a neighbor who homeschooled with disasterous results.... (Actually true but I'm being sarcastic because of your reference to personal experience)
Do you really think that just being a middle-class 2-parent family is enough in and of itself, or do you realize it is what those 2 parents DO and how they treat their kids that determine the results?
Do you really think that just being a middle-class 2-parent family is enough in and of itself, or do you realize it is what those 2 parents DO and how they treat their kids that determine the results?
Statistically speaking (and we are talking statistics here), yes I do. When you look at educational outcomes, things like SES, having parents who are involved in a child's education, and two parent households rank high in predicting outcomes. Most homeschoolers have three out of the four biggest indicators of success. The fourth is maternal education and many of them have that too.
Kids who come from stable two parent households where they are financially sound enough to have their needs met with parents who are involved in their educations tend to do very well educationally no matter how they are schooled. Yes, there are exceptions but we can only make a statistical argument here. Demographics alone would predict that homeschoolers should be performing much better than average when compared to traditionally schooled kids who run the gammut.
This is something I try to point out whenever I can because some people try to attribute the success to homeschooling itself when we have every reason to believe that, on average, these students would have done just as well in a public school system. Yes, there are some special cases where that wouldn't be the case but those aren't up for debate. We can only talk about what happens on average in a debate.
Statistically speaking (and we are talking statistics here), yes I do. When you look at educational outcomes, things like SES, having parents who are involved in a child's education, and two parent households rank high in predicting outcomes. Most homeschoolers have three out of the four biggest indicators of success. The fourth is maternal education and many of them have that too.
Kids who come from stable two parent households where they are financially sound enough to have their needs met with parents who are involved in their educations tend to do very well educationally no matter how they are schooled. Yes, there are exceptions but we can only make a statistical argument here. Demographics alone would predict that homeschoolers should be performing much better than average when compared to traditionally schooled kids who run the gammut.
This is something I try to point out whenever I can because some people try to attribute the success to homeschooling itself when we have every reason to believe that, on average, these students would have done just as well in a public school system. Yes, there are some special cases where that wouldn't be the case but those aren't up for debate. We can only talk about what happens on average in a debate.
yes you do what? Think that simply being middle class and having 2 parents is enough to create a good outcome, or yes you do realize it is how those 2 people parent that makes the difference. The indicator I bolded is the most important one, and that wasn't mentioned in your PP.
I realize it is anecdotal, but look at President Obama. He had a lower-educated, single mom who was hugely involved in his education. What I'm trying to say is that involvement is more important that simply having a certain income and having 2 parents. Families with 2 parents are more likely to be middle class or higher, and are more likely to be involved, yes. Statistically, yes, homeschoolers are likely to be successful. I agree with that. My point is having a certain income and staying married aren't enough alone.
yes you do what? Think that simply being middle class and having 2 parents is enough to create a good outcome, or yes you do realize it is how those 2 people parent that makes the difference. The indicator I bolded is the most important one, and that wasn't mentioned in your PP.
I realize it is anecdotal, but look at President Obama. He had a lower-educated, single mom who was hugely involved in his education. What I'm trying to say is that involvement is more important that simply having a certain income and having 2 parents. Families with 2 parents are more likely to be middle class or higher, and are more likely to be involved, yes. Statistically, yes, homeschoolers are likely to be successful. I agree with that. My point is having a certain income and staying married aren't enough alone.
Yes, to the question you asked. Did I need to restate it? Yes, I do think that being from a middle class, two parent family with parents who are involved in your education would predict educational success for most students no matter how they are educated. The deck is stacked in their favor, especially so if mom is also educated. Demographics alone would predict that homeschooled kids should do quite better than kids in public schools who run the gammut. Think about it. The drug dealer isn't homeschooling, neither is the single mom who is working two jobs and unable to even be involved with her kids, neglectful parents don't usually homeschool, parents who don't value education don't usually homeschool, parents who are uninvolved in their children's educatoins don't home school...etc, etc, etc....they send their kids to the public schools. Homeschoolers tend to be middle class, two parent couples and by default, involved in their children's educations. All of these predict success for the student. I, also, think (personal opinoin here) that homeschoolers want to prove that homeschooling works so I think that most work hard at it. While I do question whether or not their kids actually do better because they are homeschooled, I don't have reason to believe they do worse as a group.
As a teacher, I can tell you first hand that kids who come from stable homes, where their needs are met and who have parents who are involved in their educations tend to do well in school. Especially so if they have educated mothers. This is the demographic that most homeschoolers come from except for the mom being educated. I'm not sure of the percentage of homeschooling moms who are educated.
Edited to add that I found some stats on demographics of homeschoolers that state that 24% of homeschooling parents (both parents so it may not be the one doing the homeschooling) do not have any college while 30% of the general population parents who don't homeschool do not have any college. 84% of homeschoolers are dual parent households while only 73% of non home schooling parents are in dual parent households. While there is less than a $2K difference in familiy incomes (homeschooling families having higher incomes), signifcantly more non homeschooling moms are in the labor force so there would be day care expenses coming out of their income which would result in a greater, practical, difference in incomes. $42K in income in a household with a SAHP is not equal to $42K in income in a DWP household because the expenses associated with both parents working lower the practical incomes for the DWP household.
I know this is off topic but, in reality, just the demographics of home schoolers would indicate educational success. Given that the majority of homeschoolers are middle class two parent families, home schooling should deliver results. Of course I have a sister and a neighbor who homeschooled with disasterous results.... (Actually true but I'm being sarcastic because of your reference to personal experience)
Not going there, Ivory. The bolded would be why.
::beaming at Julia with "watch me being good, Mom!" expression::
yes you do what? Think that simply being middle class and having 2 parents is enough to create a good outcome,
Statistically....
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Yup....I remember when my kids actually liked me....
Two more years until the oldest heads for college....
