Being "Open-Minded"......Good/Bad or Both? (cost, county, scene)
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Brilliant! I cannot even respond intelligently right now, I need to meditate on your words because you've just spun my head right off my neck and I have to go retrieve it before I can grasp the full meaning of this. No, seriously, I think that's a very good insight and I do partially get what you're saying, and I seriously need to contemplate it. It's part of my religious practice, you know, to sit and contemplate that which I don't understand. Yes, I see the irony, or perhaps the lack thereof, in what I'm saying.
Deeptrance,
Wow, I didn't know that my observation would send you to a higher plain of thought which is especially hard when one's head has left their body!
But seriously, everybody has core beliefs that anchor them to reality, or their own preception of reality. While I was trying to make a deep thought provoking point I was not intending any irony in the statement. I am glad you enjoyed it.
Should I call you grasshopper? (sorry, I could not resist)
. Growing up in San Francisco, I've had friend of all colors, sexual orientations, religions, etc., and I highly value those experiences. Why close yourself off to the world, when so many different types of people can enrich your life?
Now I agree that being open-minded doesn't mean you have to like everything, but I do think you should give certain things/people a chance, and not judge so quickly.
Oh, and expressing the feeling of "not wanting to live by a gay couple" borders on outright bigotry... what if I didn't want to live near a Christian or black couple? Would that be societally acceptable? Obviously you don't have to live near anyone, but I'm really dumbfounded as to why this (living near gay people) would bother someone.
Okay, sorry to rant... I didn't want to get political on this board, however I couldn't resist answering this one! I'm sure you're a perfectly nice person, but you hit a nerve with the gay & tattoo comments.
Gizmo,
Not much to really argue about, but if you will, an observation, or a need to help open my mind a little perhaps. So bear with me.
You grew up in SF. the bay area is known as being probably the most "gay" city in the US. I have not seen much to counter that reputation. So, what is it about SF that has created so many gays? Is it a genetic trend in the birth rate that has created this population, or has this become a place for gays to come where they know they will be amoung those of like mind and lifestyle?
My belief is that it is the latter that has created this population segment. The same is true for Seattle for example. So, if I am correct, people are moving to these areas to be with those of their "own kind".
While I know that SF has both gays and straights and they both live together, just the fact that gays would migrate to a place where there are other who share their lifesyle, there would be little difference between this and a straight person saying that they wanted to migrate to a place that had others who share their lifestyle. Are both boarderline bigotry, or are they both a personal choice of who they want to live around?
I remember an old saying that usually is true. Birds of a feather flock together. Proof? just watch Springer!
Not much to really argue about, but if you will, an observation, or a need to help open my mind a little perhaps. So bear with me.
You grew up in SF. the bay area is known as being probably the most "gay" city in the US. I have not seen much to counter that reputation. So, what is it about SF that has created so many gays? Is it a genetic trend in the birth rate that has created this population, or has this become a place for gays to come where they know they will be amoung those of like mind and lifestyle?
My belief is that it is the latter that has created this population segment. The same is true for Seattle for example. So, if I am correct, people are moving to these areas to be with those of their "own kind".
While I know that SF has both gays and straights and they both live together, just the fact that gays would migrate to a place where there are other who share their lifesyle, there would be little difference between this and a straight person saying that they wanted to migrate to a place that had others who share their lifestyle. Are both boarderline bigotry, or are they both a personal choice of who they want to live around?
I remember an old saying that usually is true. Birds of a feather flock together. Proof? just watch Springer!
So, what is your take on this?
That's actually a good question, and one I've been asked before... I strongly, and factually, believe that it's the latter as well. We don't "breed" gay people, they come here because they know it's an accepting place for them. I mean, if you think about it, how could we genetically create them? It is most likely a genetic trait, but not an inherited one (if anyone doesn't understand the difference, visit a scientific encyclopedia!). It all really started in 1970, with the Stonewall raids & riots in New York, followed by the first Pride Parades... then the 1978 murders of Harvey Milk (an openly gay SF Supervisor) and Mayor Moscone really stirred up our community. If you don't know those stories, you can read about them here -http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...40/ai_20139080 But we were an accepting city even before then, as we became the Hippie's playground in the 1960's, and probably welcomed Beatniks in the '50s! I can't tell you why we're like that, but I personally think it's our best trait.
Ever since the '70s, our gay community has been very open, and they held the first Pride Parade to say "We're not going to be scared anymore, or live in the closet to please you". Despite what some ignorant types think, it's not all about sex, or sharing what goes on in the bedroom. If I were to talk about a nice dinner with my boyfriend (as a woman), would I be "flaunting my heterosexuality"?? I don't even know the details of my gay friend's sex lives, and personally don't want to know - and that goes for my straight friends too! (Actually, I know more about the straight one's details than the gay ones.) Unfortunately for the gay community, they HAVE to be open in order to live a normal life, where they don't have to play the "pronoun game" or hide aspects of their life. Simply walking down the street hand-in-hand can be a problem in some towns, but not in San Francisco! And that's why they flock here, since it's one of the few places they can live freely. If there was only one town that accepted blondes, Asians, Christians, etc., don't you think a lot of people from those groups would end up living there? So to make a long story short, no we don't "make gays", they come here because we accept them with open arms!
Disclaimer: Of course not EVERYONE in San Francisco/Bay Area is accepting, but we have a much higher percentage of those who are! I have yet to see any real homophobia around here, though I'm sure it unfortunately exists among some - especially the older or very conservative citizens. But my former boss said something once, which summed up our general views; she said "I have a friend who's a gay Republican, and he gets more slack for his political views!"
P.S. I just noticed the middle of your comment, where you asked about whether it's bigotry (moving to be with other gays). I don't think this can be called "bigotry", since they're not moving to get AWAY from a certain group. They generally don't care about a straight couple, or any other type, living next to them... they just feel more comfortable with a strong community of like-minded people, as I think anyone would. Same reason there are Italian neighborhoods, Jewish neighborhoods, Irish, etc. - just look at New York City!
And for the gay community in particular, it's also a simple issue of safety... they're often moving to escape neighborhoods where bigotry does exist, and their lives could be in danger. My mom's best friend is a 60-something year old gay man, who was born and raised in the mountains of West Virginia. In the heart of the Bible-Belt, and being that it was the 1950-60s, he really had no choice but to move to California. It was either living in the closest & fearing the danger of getting caught, or being in a place where he could have a normal existence. Not to mention, he would have absolutely no dating life there! Does that all make sense?
My cardiologist is in this group. He's a very nice person but he would say you're not a true Jew. He's angry at all the liberalism and reformist types who are Jewish. I asked him "So, you're more like Laura Schlesinger?" and he responded "She would be WAY to the left of me!" Growing up in California I had mostly Jewish friends and didn't even know it! My parents took us to an Episcopal church but I liked the intellectual, culturally interesting hip kids and I later learned of their Jewishness. Then I went to Sonoma State University in the North Bay and forget about it. All my friends were Jews, many from New Jersey and New York. That's when I really started noticing that I was a Semitophile. Next I was at the U of MA in Amherst and I lived with a pair of older Jewish women and all my friends were Jewish. Now I'm in Austin and almost all my friends are Jewish. Go figure. My brother in Vermont married a NY Jew. Oy vey....
My only exposure to the religious (or traditional) practices was 3 years ago when I was living in Studio City and I took a drive through Encino. There were families dressed in black-and-white walking everywhere I looked! It was the most bizarre thing because I had no explanation for it. Fortunately all my friends in the Los Angeles area are Jewish so I quickly got an explanation. You know the day it was, I've already forgotten the name of it but they explained that the faithful only wear black and white and they walk everywhere on that day. So I learned 2 things: about a unique holiday tradition, and about the concentration of practicing Jews in Encino!
LOL... I think (okay, I KNOW) you have more Jewish friends than I do! And I've never actually dated a Jewish man, though not on purpose - not to stereotype, but most of the ones I meet just aren't my type. But I would love to eventually marry a Jewish man, so I'm trying my hardest to find one. My sister is married to a non-Jew, but they were smart enough to attend interfaith counseling first... so hopefully they worked out any future cultural conflicts. Regardless, I'm happy to hear you're a fan of my people.
P.S. The people you saw in Encino were most likely Chasidic, or Lubavitch/Chabad. Orthodox sometimes wear the full garb too, but usually they just do the yarmulke and tallis (not sure how to spell that in English). But all very observant Jews of any sect don't drive on Shabbat (our weekly Sabbath), since you aren't supposed to do ANY physical work. In Israel, basically everything shuts down from Friday @ sundown - Saturday @ sundown, including the busses and taxis. To get around the basic needs, people may hire someone to do these things for them every week... but there are still restrictions, as you can read about here - http://www.skokiekollel.org/halacha/v4no17.html (broken link)
So, what is it about SF that has created so many gays? Is it a genetic trend in the birth rate that has created this population, or has this become a place for gays to come where they know they will be amoung those of like mind and lifestyle?
...While I know that SF has both gays and straights and they both live together, just the fact that gays would migrate to a place where there are other who share their lifesyle, there would be little difference between this and a straight person saying that they wanted to migrate to a place that had others who share their lifestyle. Are both boarderline bigotry, or are they both a personal choice of who they want to live around?
I remember an old saying that usually is true. Birds of a feather flock together.
I've enjoyed this discussion between you and Gizmo and I agree with both of you.
First, it is true that most people (birds) want to flock together with their own kind. I'm eclectic and have chosen an eclectic area in an eclectic city, meaning that it provides me with the variety that I experience within myself, so I'm really doing the same thing as if I were a conservative Christian moving to Lynchburg, VA or Colorado Springs. There's no disputing this tendency.
I think we see the most false charges of "bigotry" in the realm of racial segregation. While there is a segment of each racial group that is racist, most simply prefer to be around their own kind.
Atlantic Monthly published a wonderful article last year detailing a computer modeling study of segregation. In the computer simulation there were 2 types of people and no differences in housing prices or anything else. The only assumptions made were:
1. People move occasionally and
2. They want to be next to at least one other household that is like them but otherwise have no problem with being next to members of the "other group."
The result: the two types eventually became completely segregated simply through the mathematics and the consequences of the desire to be near at least one of their own kind!
The only way to achieve true integration is for people to actively seek neighbors who are not like them. Then you have to hope those unlike neighbors share your desire to be in a diverse area. Often enough this is not how things work, so we end up with totally segregated cities regardless of the lack of bigotry!
Ain't that interesting?
Or is it just disappointing?
LOL... I think (okay, I KNOW) you have more Jewish friends than I do! And I've never actually dated a Jewish man, though not on purpose - not to stereotype, but most of the ones I meet just aren't my type. But I would love to eventually marry a Jewish man, so I'm trying my hardest to find one.
Would you be willing to settle for a convert?
Surnames of some of my ex-girlfriends:
Weinstein
Levine
Diamond
Zimmer
Schloss
Tannenbaum
Deutsch (doesn't sound Jewish, but she was VERY Jewish!)
I think I should pass the test with that list alone. Please talk with your rabbi and get back to me ASAP.
Surnames of some of my ex-girlfriends:
Weinstein
Levine
Diamond
Zimmer
Schloss
Tannenbaum
Deutsch (doesn't sound Jewish, but she was VERY Jewish!)
I think I should pass the test with that list alone. Please talk with your rabbi and get back to me ASAP.
LOL... I'd settle for any religion, as long as we raise the kids Jewish.
The Rabbi I grew up with recently passed away (he was 85), but unfortunately he was against interfaith marriage, even if you converted. He accepted these couples into our congregation with open arms, but just wouldn't perform the ceremonies... because of that, my sister had to get a family friend (who's a very liberal Rabbi) to perform her wedding ceremony. But anyway, I don't care if you're a convert!
LOL... I'd settle for any religion, as long as we raise the kids Jewish.
Excellent, I'd have no problem with that at all because all my Bay Area friends who have children are raising them Jewish as well, so they'd all be able to play together.
Now, the question is, can we name our children "Gizmolina", "Gizmette" and "Gizmotto"?
Oh, one more important thing ---- I'm a dog person all the way. If there's one thing I've learned from all the women I've dated, it's to watch out for the ones with cats We always end up having problems
The result: the two types eventually became completely segregated simply through the mathematics and the consequences of the desire to be near at least one of their own kind!
Ain't that interesting?
Or is it just disappointing?
Yeah, I remember that study. Very interesting, but not surprising, and is really what I was trying to convey, but you did a much better job at it than me. I guess now you can call me grasshopper!
Anyway, I think it's "human nature" which means we get to either blame God or Darwin, depending on your core beliefs!
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No, seriously, I think that's a very good insight and I do partially get what you're saying, and I seriously need to contemplate it. It's part of my religious practice, you know, to sit and contemplate that which I don't understand. Yes, I see the irony, or perhaps the lack thereof, in what I'm saying. 
(sorry, I could not resist)
Good Question
Growing up in California I had mostly Jewish friends and didn't even know it! My parents took us to an Episcopal church but I liked the intellectual, culturally interesting hip kids and I later learned of their Jewishness. Then I went to Sonoma State University in the North Bay and forget about it. All my friends were Jews, many from New Jersey and New York. That's when I really started noticing that I was a Semitophile. Next I was at the U of MA in Amherst and I lived with a pair of older Jewish women and all my friends were Jewish. Now I'm in Austin and almost all my friends are Jewish. Go figure. My brother in Vermont married a NY Jew. Oy vey....
