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Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,194,119 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
From a historical point of view, the near east was a pretty savage place in Old Testanent times. One of the standard forms of insuring the enemy you beat will never bother you again was to wipe all of them out. Life was cheap and short. Rulers were absolute. Even the 'civilized' like the early Greeks were willing to wipe out the enemy as policy.
It isn't surprising the tone of the god would be vengeful and absolute if that was the way the world was.
Rome wasn't a kind place, but it was a stable one. Genocide wasn't common and most places chose to join rather than die, and gained from it. People could expect enough stability so they could do more than hope to eat and keep alive. Within Roman control, they lived in a peaceful world.
The vengeful world of the Old Testament wouldn't have appealed to them, and those they chose to follow would not have been those who spouted it. Religions and their view of the world grow out of the time they live in and what they know. Also, as it was deviating from Judiasm and being targeted to Roman and urban populations by the followers, a god that would be acceptable would be presented. The New Testament was heavily selected for the pr it would convey.
Always look at the time a philosophy comes from and the motivations of those who promoted it.
(and I do not consider the Bible 'true' but a reflection of its users, and some archological and historial references)
Those are my exact sentiments on religion. I've said before how out of date it is. Tobacco is interestingly a good example of this. Christianity doesn't encourage drunkenness and Islam forbids it, but alcohol was known when those holy texts were written. Mormonism forbids drinking and smoking, and by the time that religion appeared tobacco was known. Religion is extremely slow to keep up with the times. Somewhat related to this are true fairly tales. Usually the ones told to kids today have been cleaned up, but the original fairy tales were often gruesome and macabre, meant to instill fear in kids because of the world they lived in and were designed to make them aware of dangers they faced in that time period.
Regardless of what the history of Christianity is, how it was influenced, what the motivations were for its laws and so forth, many devout adherents won't question it. I think it's dangerous when people don't look at something with scrutiny they've adopted as a part of their identity. Questioning it, researching it and exposure to other belief systems is what made me go atheist. Also, some of the stories they tell at church just sound so outrageous. Mom forced me to church when I was younger, and there was a speaker who actually tried to convince people dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark... but they went extinct shortly after the flood. I think the contradictions throughout the Bible didn't help me keep the faith either.
I'm surprised you left Byzantium out of your list, because after the split of the Roman Empire they were pretty instrumental in the rise and spread of Christianity, having established a safe haven for Christians across a vast area. Though they were more in the Eastern Orthodoxy tradition, they influenced beliefs in Western Christianity.
Those are my exact sentiments on religion. I've said before how out of date it is. Tobacco is interestingly a good example of this. Christianity doesn't encourage drunkenness and Islam forbids it, but alcohol was known when those holy texts were written. Mormonism forbids drinking and smoking, and by the time that religion appeared tobacco was known. Religion is extremely slow to keep up with the times. Somewhat related to this are true fairly tales. Usually the ones told to kids today have been cleaned up, but the original fairy tales were often gruesome and macabre, meant to instill fear in kids because of the world they lived in and were designed to make them aware of dangers they faced in that time period.
Regardless of what the history of Christianity is, how it was influenced, what the motivations were for its laws and so forth, many devout adherents won't question it. I think it's dangerous when people don't look at something with scrutiny they've adopted as a part of their identity. Questioning it, researching it and exposure to other belief systems is what made me go atheist. Also, some of the stories they tell at church just sound so outrageous. Mom forced me to church when I was younger, and there was a speaker who actually tried to convince people dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark... but they went extinct shortly after the flood. I think the contradictions throughout the Bible didn't help me keep the faith either.
I'm surprised you left Byzantium out of your list, because after the split of the Roman Empire they were pretty instrumental in the rise and spread of Christianity, having established a safe haven for Christians across a vast area. Though they were more in the Eastern Orthodoxy tradition, they influenced beliefs in Western Christianity.
Tabacco, alchol and other substances, along with a range of natural human behaviors, are symbolic about the point of view of christan and many other religions, (but not all). They customarily say thou shall not and leave it at that. It can be argued that many can do harm to you, especially in excess, or hurt another, but it is a black and white statement. None of these things have ever dissapeared. My mom stayed with my dad's heavily babtist parents during the war, and all alchol was banned by state law. All this did was make the bootlegers rich. My uncles went and sat in chruch, listening to the preacher and saying amen, and sometimes took her along when they go out to a designated spot to dig up the white lighting. Of course the same people years later were very horrified when a nephew had beer in the frig. What matters is what *shows* not what you do in the dark of night.
This isn't unusual, since human behavior hasn't really ever changed, just what is forbidden. What really drew me to my faith is there is no thou shalt not, but a cautionary word. Do no harm. This includes harm to yourself. But you the person must decide not to because you choose not to. When you do harm its understood that as the universe has balance as a law of its existance, the harm will return to its maker. If you do not wish harm to return, think first, act later. In the end, its the decision of each individual as to what they do and its repercussions.
Byzantium is a perfect example of how the nature of where and how determines our point of view. The christan church in Byzantium was more heavily influenced by direct middle eastern elements than the west, who got them second hand. They are both technically of the same faith, but there are major debate points between them. And they arose out of the same basic material, but what became a part was chosed by what fit.
I have no problem with people embrasing a faith that works for them. Or not at all. Or the Flying Spagettii. Or something Klingon. And they'll always have differences based on how they see the world. But none should EVER be allowed to make up the rules for everyone else.
We also have social rules. Stealing from your neighbor, killing another without reason, and so on are things which harm society and are reflected in many religions. This does not mean that god told them, but they were found to be bad things by every society and village and they all came up with the idea on their own at the start.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,194,119 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
Tabacco, alchol and other substances, along with a range of natural human behaviors, are symbolic about the point of view of christan and many other religions, (but not all). They customarily say thou shall not and leave it at that. It can be argued that many can do harm to you, especially in excess, or hurt another, but it is a black and white statement. None of these things have ever dissapeared. My mom stayed with my dad's heavily babtist parents during the war, and all alchol was banned by state law. All this did was make the bootlegers rich. My uncles went and sat in chruch, listening to the preacher and saying amen, and sometimes took her along when they go out to a designated spot to dig up the white lighting. Of course the same people years later were very horrified when a nephew had beer in the frig. What matters is what *shows* not what you do in the dark of night.
This isn't unusual, since human behavior hasn't really ever changed, just what is forbidden. What really drew me to my faith is there is no thou shalt not, but a cautionary word. Do no harm. This includes harm to yourself. But you the person must decide not to because you choose not to. When you do harm its understood that as the universe has balance as a law of its existance, the harm will return to its maker. If you do not wish harm to return, think first, act later. In the end, its the decision of each individual as to what they do and its repercussions.
Byzantium is a perfect example of how the nature of where and how determines our point of view. The christan church in Byzantium was more heavily influenced by direct middle eastern elements than the west, who got them second hand. They are both technically of the same faith, but there are major debate points between them. And they arose out of the same basic material, but what became a part was chosed by what fit.
I have no problem with people embrasing a faith that works for them. Or not at all. Or the Flying Spagettii. Or something Klingon. And they'll always have differences based on how they see the world. But none should EVER be allowed to make up the rules for everyone else.
We also have social rules. Stealing from your neighbor, killing another without reason, and so on are things which harm society and are reflected in many religions. This does not mean that god told them, but they were found to be bad things by every society and village and they all came up with the idea on their own at the start.
The point though is that neither the Bible nor Koran forbid tobacco, so it's "okay". I've had exposure to a lot of Muslims directly from the Middle East, and smoking is quite common among males. Drinking, however, is forbidden. You can't even buy alcohol in many Islamic countries. Usually the ones that allow alcohol sales have a heavy dependence on general tourism, such as Morocco, Indonesia and the emirate of Dubai. Saudi Arabia gets a lot of religious tourism, and alcohol is outlawed nationwide. I've heard you can buy it at "compounds" but I'm not sure exactly what those are.
But you raise a point about what people do regardless of what their religion says. Most of the Muslims I knew took the advantage while in America do go overboard with alcohol, pornography/strip clubs, drugs, etc. When they told me about their country, it sounded just awful to me. But I'm adamantly opposed to a theocratic government, which is why I oppose Christianity pushing its views onto all Americans. I think most Christians would be surprised by what's in the Bible, and how many rules they violate routinely. That's also why I don't understand the point of putting up the Ten Commandments, because there are far more rules than that in the Bible. If you can get past being lectured to, see how far you can make it through Leviticus, which is more or less an epic list of rules.
I have to disagree with you on Byzantium. If by Middle Eastern you meant Muslim, Byzantium predates Mohammed, as does its official adoption of Christianity as a state religion. The other cultures that were in the area may have influenced its local culture, but that civilization rose from the fragmentation of the Roman Empire into East and West Rome.
I would say in relation to this thread, that the Ten Commandments don't make a lot of sense on the capitol grounds. How many of those are actually the law? And how many US laws actually defy a commandment? If the Ten Commandments had to be on public property, I would be more supportive of your idea of a religious park where anything can go up, or maybe a library. It's a book written by people, and the writer's/s' biases and thoughts are put into it. You can read Poe to see what a tortured life he lived, or Twain to see what he thought of how people were in the South, or Swift to see that he loved obscenity and shock value and so forth. The Bible is no different... with the exception that by the time it was printed in English, it had already gone through several translations. Just for the fun of it, I typed the phrase "It was cool he hung out with me" into Google translate, which I chose because of the slang. I let the computer do all the work, translating that into German, then that into Korean, then that into Russian, then that into Chinese, then that into Greek, then that into Hindi, and then that back to English and I got the phrase: "He is calm, walked up to me."
That's putting a lot of trust into some obscure, historical figure. It makes you wonder what all was lost in translation... or intentionally changed.
Am I the only one who thinks this is hysterical that they pulled this off in Oklahoma? Is Sally Kern convulsing yet? Sorry, couldn't resist.
She might as well. The judge's last name who made the ruling against the same sex marriage ban is Kern. Only in Oklahoma are ironies like that.
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