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Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
Reputation: 1691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howest2008
America Founding Fathers founded the USA as a cultist Christian/ Christian Nation...POTUS Thomas Jefferson rewrote the BIBLE and everyone called it the Jefferson BIBLE.....Hahahaha I own you sWAKE....
You use "own" too loosely. You have an overinflated value of self-worth and present ideas that don't make sense to anyone but you (and that are funny to no one else but you), and they're often false. You routinely focus on a single detail without looking at the bigger picture. In this case, you've chosen to ignore that European colonists left Europe to escape religious oppression and persecution. You know... people who went to the New World so that doctrine they didn't subscribe to wouldn't be forced on them. And how things have changed, because forcing your beliefs onto others is precisely what you do. Of all the founding fathers, George Washington was arguably the most devout and pious, yet he wasn't as "in your face" about his beliefs as you are with yours. Most of the founding fathers have made comments that are somewhat suggestive of either atheism or agnosticism. Considering the world they lived in, and the fact that America revived democracy, which had more or less been dead in Western civilization for centuries, they now found that they had to appease people who could actually vote them into office. If I were to run for political office, I would have to tone down my atheist views in order to get elected and reelected. Many of those colonies were settled with sects of Christianity that really didn't trust each other. In fact, go to Google Maps and zoom in close to the Pennsylvania-Delaware border. Based on your "knowledge" that may take you some time to find, but when you do, pay close attention to the peculiar shape of that border. You'll notice there's a perfect arc in north Delaware, which was created for a reason. The people of Wilmington pushed for a border that would create a safe distance from their city and the Quakers of Pennsylvania, so you'll find an equidistant radius from historic Wilmington and Pennsylvania. Plain and simple: they didn't trust other Christians, because the sects vary so widely. The difference is they couldn't agree on how to worship God... so you really can't keep pushing this umbrella Christian nation term.
These schisms haven't really disappeared, and a lot of sects have a distrust of others within the same blanket religion. Your Bible mysteriously stops (as though God gave up on the hocus pocus) but Mormons believe that these supernatural occurrences kept happening. A lot of Christians cast them aside. I've also heard Christians badmouth Southern Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses, Anglicans and Catholics. Within the same sects I've heard acceptance of people others condemn, while others hold the steadfast belief that those same people are untouchables. Worldwide, Christians in other countries have continued ancient traditions (that have fundamental beliefs contradictory to Christian dogma) and integrated them into their beliefs. So, which of you guys (if any) are right?
America Founding Fathers founded the USA as a cultist Christian/ Christian Nation...POTUS Thomas Jefferson rewrote the BIBLE and everyone called it the Jefferson BIBLE.....Hahahaha I own you sWAKE....
So you hit the all caps part, and the colors. And of course the nonsense unrelated to the post you quoted, but you aren't really going to OWN me until you add some bold font and add some your stupid you YouTube videos.
Come on, you have it in you, we all know you do. You can do it big guy. Go full Howest on me.
You use "own" too loosely. You have an overinflated value of self-worth and present ideas that don't make sense to anyone but you (and that are funny to no one else but you), and they're often false. You routinely focus on a single detail without looking at the bigger picture. In this case, you've chosen to ignore that European colonists left Europe to escape religious oppression and persecution. You know... people who went to the New World so that doctrine they didn't subscribe to wouldn't be forced on them. And how things have changed, because forcing your beliefs onto others is precisely what you do. Of all the founding fathers, George Washington was arguably the most devout and pious, yet he wasn't as "in your face" about his beliefs as you are with yours. Most of the founding fathers have made comments that are somewhat suggestive of either atheism or agnosticism. Considering the world they lived in, and the fact that America revived democracy, which had more or less been dead in Western civilization for centuries, they now found that they had to appease people who could actually vote them into office. If I were to run for political office, I would have to tone down my atheist views in order to get elected and reelected. Many of those colonies were settled with sects of Christianity that really didn't trust each other. In fact, go to Google Maps and zoom in close to the Pennsylvania-Delaware border. Based on your "knowledge" that may take you some time to find, but when you do, pay close attention to the peculiar shape of that border. You'll notice there's a perfect arc in north Delaware, which was created for a reason. The people of Wilmington pushed for a border that would create a safe distance from their city and the Quakers of Pennsylvania, so you'll find an equidistant radius from historic Wilmington and Pennsylvania. Plain and simple: they didn't trust other Christians, because the sects vary so widely. The difference is they couldn't agree on how to worship God... so you really can't keep pushing this umbrella Christian nation term.
These schisms haven't really disappeared, and a lot of sects have a distrust of others within the same blanket religion. Your Bible mysteriously stops (as though God gave up on the hocus pocus) but Mormons believe that these supernatural occurrences kept happening. A lot of Christians cast them aside. I've also heard Christians badmouth Southern Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses, Anglicans and Catholics. Within the same sects I've heard acceptance of people others condemn, while others hold the steadfast belief that those same people are untouchables. Worldwide, Christians in other countries have continued ancient traditions (that have fundamental beliefs contradictory to Christian dogma) and integrated them into their beliefs. So, which of you guys (if any) are right?
Jefferson was a deist. Many of the educated at the time were. They believed there was a god, but it did not rule. There were numerous differences between christan sects at the time as well.
What is indisputable is that the Founding Fathers created a government with a *sepreation of church and state*. Fact is the satinist or flying spagetti people or chuthulu don't belong on the state grounds. NOR does the ten comandments as it represents a single faith. I'm sure there are places it could go where everyone would be happy.
Maybe what we need is something private where ALL faiths can put up presentations on their history and their beliefs, as they understand them, not as someone else thinks they do. Have a big arch with all the symbols given equal value. Have a presentation about the athiest point of view too.
I'm wiccan and its amazing what some think we believe and how far off they are. Even in a fairly recent neopagan faith, there are a lot of differences in the small details. We just don't fight over them, let everyone tailor their ceremony as they choose. It's all about the Lady and your choice of dark or lignt and how you get there and what choices you make are up to you. Karma sorts it all out in the end. No need for arguments.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
Jefferson was a deist. Many of the educated at the time were. They believed there was a god, but it did not rule. There were numerous differences between christan sects at the time as well.
What is indisputable is that the Founding Fathers created a government with a *sepreation of church and state*. Fact is the satinist or flying spagetti people or chuthulu don't belong on the state grounds. NOR does the ten comandments as it represents a single faith. I'm sure there are places it could go where everyone would be happy.
Maybe what we need is something private where ALL faiths can put up presentations on their history and their beliefs, as they understand them, not as someone else thinks they do. Have a big arch with all the symbols given equal value. Have a presentation about the athiest point of view too.
I'm wiccan and its amazing what some think we believe and how far off they are. Even in a fairly recent neopagan faith, there are a lot of differences in the small details. We just don't fight over them, let everyone tailor their ceremony as they choose. It's all about the Lady and your choice of dark or lignt and how you get there and what choices you make are up to you. Karma sorts it all out in the end. No need for arguments.
To the part in bold, we do. They're called churches. Or mosques, synagogues, temples, etc. That's why I'm against anything going up in the first place. However, if one is allowed then all should be.
I know Jefferson claimed deism as his faith. I just think that he's said some things that suggest he even doubted that. Similarly, after John Milton wrote Paradise Lost he was branded as a heretic and there's a lot of debate in literary circles as to whether or not he truly followed Christianity, though he claimed he did. Unfortunately, whatever historical people truly believed we may never know.
To the part in bold, we do. They're called churches. Or mosques, synagogues, temples, etc. That's why I'm against anything going up in the first place. However, if one is allowed then all should be.
I know Jefferson claimed deism as his faith. I just think that he's said some things that suggest he even doubted that. Similarly, after John Milton wrote Paradise Lost he was branded as a heretic and there's a lot of debate in literary circles as to whether or not he truly followed Christianity, though he claimed he did. Unfortunately, whatever historical people truly believed we may never know.
That wasn't what I have in mind. I'm not going to join some church to see what they believe, but what if I'm curious? What if I'd like to see what they had to say about themselves *without any recruiting*? The idea is something like a park or cultural center. You want to show others what you stand for, and how you celebrate, and just what you believe, then you do a display. And its not set up by government, but privately. No conversion material would be allowed, just a show of facts. This is our core belief. These are the variations. This is our origion. No bashing of someone else or insisting you are right and the rest aren't. We 'hear' what a faith stands for by hersay, and emotion. We need more understanding of each other. I don't think *government* should do it though. Nor should laws and rules be based on the tenants of one dominant religion. If the state wants to have a christan display, then the state should *invite* all other religions to present a monument rather than squirming and hinting they'll backtrack. This includes those they look upon as 'evil'.
And in that time, and especially earlier, where not being christan could cost your life, there were probably a lot less real christans (as in people who actually believed, and not out of fear or that they'd never had another choice to consider) then there seemed. Not to mention the wide variety of 'christan'. I respect a persons's choice, including having none, but not if its just always what you do. Nor is something you should espouse or else is not really embrasing religion. It's either complacency or fear.
There were also christan influenced works which were not necessarily christian other than from the social dominance.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47
That wasn't what I have in mind. I'm not going to join some church to see what they believe, but what if I'm curious? What if I'd like to see what they had to say about themselves *without any recruiting*? The idea is something like a park or cultural center. You want to show others what you stand for, and how you celebrate, and just what you believe, then you do a display. And its not set up by government, but privately. No conversion material would be allowed, just a show of facts. This is our core belief. These are the variations. This is our origion. No bashing of someone else or insisting you are right and the rest aren't. We 'hear' what a faith stands for by hersay, and emotion. We need more understanding of each other. I don't think *government* should do it though. Nor should laws and rules be based on the tenants of one dominant religion. If the state wants to have a christan display, then the state should *invite* all other religions to present a monument rather than squirming and hinting they'll backtrack. This includes those they look upon as 'evil'.
And in that time, and especially earlier, where not being christan could cost your life, there were probably a lot less real christans (as in people who actually believed, and not out of fear or that they'd never had another choice to consider) then there seemed. Not to mention the wide variety of 'christan'. I respect a persons's choice, including having none, but not if its just always what you do. Nor is something you should espouse or else is not really embrasing religion. It's either complacency or fear.
There were also christan influenced works which were not necessarily christian other than from the social dominance.
I think if you're curious you could seek out the answers yourself. I've heard that has in part to do with the rampant rise of atheism and agnosticism in Western countries, because people can freely and easily access information on other religions and find a plethora of information.
Usually when you leave these representations up to the followers, you'll get a twisted representation of how that religion really is. Its practice is typically far worse than people think. There are two active threads on GLBT rights now, and you can see how some people feel it's their right to force their beliefs onto others, though they get hostile if they feel their beliefs are being threatened. Beyond that, you can throw in abortion, legalized marijuana, and so forth and they feel the same. It's as though if a state or the federal government recognize one of those things, the followers believe they will go to hell. The consequences of their fervor have a spillover effect: back alley abortions, higher suicide rates in GLBT people, etc.
Unfortunately, when it comes to religion almost no one wants to listen or understand.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubi3
I'm not religious, but cannot comprehend anyone worshipping a creature who represents the evil of the world.
Technically... he doesn't. Satan was briefly mentioned in the Old Testament and really wasn't evil. Christians subsequently elaborated on the character in the New Testament to make him so. Similarly, you can see a dramatic personality shift in God between the two testaments. He went from a bloodthirsty, petty, jealous deity to a kind, loving, forgiving one. Furthermore, Hell isn't discussed in great detail in the Bible. Most of the modern concept of it comes from The Divine Comedy, in particular Inferno.
I think if you're curious you could seek out the answers yourself. I've heard that has in part to do with the rampant rise of atheism and agnosticism in Western countries, because people can freely and easily access information on other religions and find a plethora of information.
Usually when you leave these representations up to the followers, you'll get a twisted representation of how that religion really is. Its practice is typically far worse than people think. There are two active threads on GLBT rights now, and you can see how some people feel it's their right to force their beliefs onto others, though they get hostile if they feel their beliefs are being threatened. Beyond that, you can throw in abortion, legalized marijuana, and so forth and they feel the same. It's as though if a state or the federal government recognize one of those things, the followers believe they will go to hell. The consequences of their fervor have a spillover effect: back alley abortions, higher suicide rates in GLBT people, etc.
Unfortunately, when it comes to religion almost no one wants to listen or understand.
Essencially I think the true believers will give the ideal version. Maybe have someone who is neutral use that as a source. Throw in the negative results of the belief too. I agree that with so much information around more people have found other things to believe in than their parents. Or have chosen nothing. Fortunately, I think this will continue. Belief is an individual thing and shouldn't be inherited. Without all that information I would not have found mine.
And religions, ALL of them, should be reminded that the member have every right to feel as they do, but they don't have a right to force that on another. I believe in karma and that the harm you done comes home. I figure that those that spread misery for others will get caught in the whamy, in this or their next life. I think you need to defend the rights of those denied, too, in the now. In the end we are defending ourselves, if not now then at some point.
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