New Amtrak Routes (Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati: oceanfront, how much, homes)

[JR_C]

Since I live in Youngstown, and it doesn't appear to be a part of any of these planned expansions, it's all pretty theoretical. But I still support anything that pulls us away from complete car dependency. If I lived in Cleveland, this would make it much more likely that I would take a trip to: Toledo, Columbus, Dayton or Cincinnati.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by 46H

You cannot compare population/business density of the NE Corridor with Ohio.
Population Density:
Boston-14k/sq mi, NYC 29k/sq mi (Manhattan 73k/sq mi), Phil 12k/sq mi, Balt 7.2k/sq mi, DC 11.3/sq mi
vs
Cinc 4k/sq mi, Toledo 3.4/sq mi, Col 4.1k/sq mi, Clev 4.9k/sq mi
Also, many of the NEC cities can easily support car free living with a load of mass transit at both ends of your rail trip, unlike the Ohio cities.

You cannot compare the distances, either:
Boston to Wash DC via car is 438 miles through some of the worst, most dense traffic in the USA with expensive tolls and absurd parking costs at your destination.
Cleve to Cinci is 248 miles through a lot of empty farmland.

There is a lot of motivation to avoid driving in the NEC contributing to high rail demand.


It has zero to do with being allergic to public transit. It has everything to do with cost and convenience. You will need to get to the train station via car (free downtown secure parking?) or car service. When you take a train, everybody needs a ticket. If you take a train to one of the Ohio cities and end up downtown, there are high odds you will need a car (or Uber) to get to your final destination adding more cost to your trip. All the different travel legs and waiting add even more time to your trip. Then you need to repeat the process on return.

With a car every passenger after the driver is essentially free. Downtown Cleveland to downtown Columbus is 143 miles (google). If the car gets 20 miles per gallon and gas is $3/gal, the trip costs 31.50 one way plus wear and tear. There will never be a one way rail ticket of $31.50. The car costs are substantially cheaper, the car flexibility is unmatched, and there is no need for extra travel legs during the trip.


While 1/3 of Americans might live in an 'urban 'environment, how you define 'urban' matters. The Ohio cities do not have enough density to support rail service. Even if the Ohio cities ever got rail, the schedules would be thin due to lack of demand and that would contribute to its eventual service cancellation. There are no defined reasons show that there is any need for rail between these Ohio cities. The distances, costs, and time flexibility are never going to get people out of their cars.

Your thought process of cost savings and "convenience" is mired in a 20th century thought process unfortunately. There's a couple of generations born since who value the environmental advantage presented by rail transit over traditional carbon emissions living, not to mention a whole segment of the population that visits the actual city center for cultural and sporting events who don't want the hassle of parking along with the ability perhaps to enjoy some adult beverages responsibly.

[ferraris]

So much negativity here!

It will be another option for transportation. No, it won't meet everybody's needs, but nothing does. It will suit the needs of some travelers, and that is a good thing.

Parking at downtown stations is really only an issue in the 3C's and Detroit. You can park for free or dirt cheap at your departure station in the other cities. If you depart from a non-3C and arrive in a 3C (or Detroit), then you don't have to deal with traffic and parking in the city. I can easily see people using it for quick trips between a small city and a bigger city. It should also be a good option between the big cities, since flying isn't really an option (Detroit excluded).

[Karl Lagos]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Your thought process of cost savings and "convenience" is mired in a 20th century thought process unfortunately. There's a couple of generations born since who value the environmental advantage presented by rail transit over traditional carbon emissions living, not to mention a whole segment of the population that visits the actual city center for cultural and sporting events who don't want the hassle of parking along with the ability perhaps to enjoy some adult beverages responsibly.

Yeah but honestly not many are going to ride these routes. in 2022 a grand total of 8K departed from Cincy to Chicago. Was trying to look for 2023. Someone mentioned it might approach 2 million, which Brightline had last year, between Miami and Orlando. Brightline also lost 192 Million last year. They also have to compete against subsidized government rail between W. Palm and Orlando.

[PerryMason614]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Your thought process of cost savings and "convenience" is mired in a 20th century thought process unfortunately. There's a couple of generations born since who value the environmental advantage presented by rail transit over traditional carbon emissions living, not to mention a whole segment of the population that visits the actual city center for cultural and sporting events who don't want the hassle of parking along with the ability perhaps to enjoy some adult beverages responsibly.

Carbon emissions living? No offense, but you drank the Kool-Aid. You're in the minority even in your generation. You also don't build transportation networks around people who want to go to a hockey game and listen to the symphony. You build them using cold, hard, factual logic.

Originally Posted by Karl Lagos

Yeah but honestly not many are going to ride these routes. in 2022 a grand total of 8K departed from Cincy to Chicago. Was trying to look for 2023. Someone mentioned it might approach 2 million, which Brightline had last year, between Miami and Orlando. Brightline also lost 192 Million last year. They also have to compete against subsidized government rail between W. Palm and Orlando.

8,000 works out to about 22 people a day willing to take a 9 hour choo choo ride to Chicago.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Karl Lagos

Yeah but honestly not many are going to ride these routes. in 2022 a grand total of 8K departed from Cincy to Chicago. Was trying to look for 2023. Someone mentioned it might approach 2 million, which Brightline had last year, between Miami and Orlando. Brightline also lost 192 Million last year. They also have to compete against subsidized government rail between W. Palm and Orlando.

Lots of problems with math and analytics in this forum.

To begin with your geographic comparison of Cincinnati to Chicago is double the distance roughly between most of the three C's and Detroit. Secondly there are ten nonstop flights per day servicing the Cincinnati to Chicago route with fares at around $250 roundtrip with decent notice. There aren't any nonstop flights between any of the three C's and average airfare on routes available are upwards of $500 roundtrip.

Lastly Amtrak is a government-subsidized private enterprise identified as "infrastructure" and as such as in the rest of the world (Europe, Asia, South America), rail transit isn't judged by profit margin. For some reason it's a uniquely foreign concept to many Americans, along with other forms of public transit.

[JR_C]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Lots of problems with math and analytics in this forum.

To begin with your geographic comparison of Cincinnati to Chicago is double the distance roughly between most of the three C's and Detroit. Secondly there are ten nonstop flights per day servicing the Cincinnati to Chicago route with fares at around $250 roundtrip with decent notice. There aren't any nonstop flights between any of the three C's and average airfare on routes available are upwards of $500 roundtrip.

Lastly Amtrak is a government-subsidized private enterprise identified as "infrastructure" and as such as in the rest of the world (Europe, Asia, South America), rail transit isn't judged by profit margin. For some reason it's a uniquely foreign concept to many Americans, along with other forms of public transit.

I've thought about this before, and I think it's a holdover from when public transit was run by private companies. When the government (state/federal) started spending huge amounts of money on roads, private transit companies couldn't compete, and slowly went out of business. Because it was understood that they provided needed infrastructure, the transit systems they ran were taken over by the government.

[Karl Lagos]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Lots of problems with math and analytics in this forum.

To begin with your geographic comparison of Cincinnati to Chicago is double the distance roughly between most of the three C's and Detroit. Secondly there are ten nonstop flights per day servicing the Cincinnati to Chicago route with fares at around $250 roundtrip with decent notice. There aren't any nonstop flights between any of the three C's and average airfare on routes available are upwards of $500 roundtrip.

Lastly Amtrak is a government-subsidized private enterprise identified as "infrastructure" and as such as in the rest of the world (Europe, Asia, South America), rail transit isn't judged by profit margin. For some reason it's a uniquely foreign concept to many Americans, along with other forms of public transit.

Cincy to Cleveland is 250 miles.
Cincy to Chicago is 290 miles.

Dang there is 10 daily flights from Cincy to Chicago, that's 1,000 passengers daily, and 360,000 annually. So figure 1/2 connect to fly out of chitown and 180,000 stay..... vs 8K that took Amtrak.

If there was any travel demand between Cincy and Cleveland I think there would be at least 1 direct flight on an Embraer or a similar aircraft.

Relative to Cincy they might get some Daytonians coming to Reds games during the week but not much than that.

[ferraris]

Gee, why isn't there any demand for the Cincy train that runs once a day and leaves at 1:41am and returns at 3:27am? Obviously choo choos are a waste of time.

[PerryMason614]

Originally Posted by ferraris

Gee, why isn't there any demand for the Cincy train that runs once a day and leaves at 1:41am and returns at 3:27am? Obviously choo choos are a waste of time.

Even if it were at high noon, how many people do you think are going to want to take a 9 hour train ride to Chicago?

Originally Posted by JR_C

I've thought about this before, and I think it's a holdover from when public transit was run by private companies. When the government (state/federal) started spending huge amounts of money on roads, private transit companies couldn't compete, and slowly went out of business. Because it was understood that they provided needed infrastructure, the transit systems they ran were taken over by the government.

I don't disagree, but I do think that thinking of things in terms of profit does enforce a certain amount of discipline. If you think of it all as an expense, we'll end up spending more on it.