Excluding Cincinnati, how Appalachian-influenced is Southwestern Ohio on the whole?

[robertbrianbush]

Originally Posted by Doughboy1918

I just figured with it being surrounded by other suburbs that they would consider themselves as such. What about Hamilton, do you think that’s closer in definition to being a suburb? Being only 35 minutes north of Cincinnati, a city of over 300,000.

No, Hamilton is another old industrial city with its own identity as a city, similar to Middletown. Now, virtually any other community in that region could be considered a suburb. Hamilton, Middletown, Springfield, and of course Dayton and Cincinnati themselves, are the five that wouldn't fit that description, that don't see themselves as suburban, and are the older, industrial core cities that the surrounding suburban areas developed around.

[robertbrianbush]

Originally Posted by midwest1

According to Census estimates... Middletown grew 0.5% in the first two years of the decade (their latest estimates available) while Springfield shrank .9%.

Of course that might be off for Springfield considering the rapid Haitianization happening there. Middletown is seeing a large increase in Hispanic population but so far no Port-au-Prince developing here...

Yes, you are right, the census data is way, way off because of the sudden and rapid immigration influx occurring here. The census estimates for some reason aren't accounting for that immigrant influx. If you count that , the cities population has increased by about 20 percent since 2020. But for some reason the census estimates aren't taking that into account.
And the immigrant influx is overwhelmingly Haitian, an estimated ten to twelve thousand in four years, but the city is growing it's Hispanic population on top of those numbers.
The city's new mayor and other members of the city government's top leadership just completed a trip to Washington to seek federal help in dealing with the immigration influx.
Everything here is strained. Four years ago the city school system did not have any Haitian Creole speaking students. Now they have around a thousand, with new ones arriving every week. One-third of the babies born in Springfield are to Haitian parents.

[robertbrianbush]

Originally Posted by midwest1

20%...wow. That's insane. Springfield has much more abandoned/available property than does Middletown...which is just about at its historical peak population -wise.

Springfield was much larger in the past.

Yes, at one time it had over 80,000 people. Now one factor that does bears consideration when discussing Springfield's population decline over the last few decades is that during those decades of decline many of those people who moved out simply moved into large tracts of new suburban style housing located in the Northridge area north of Springfield just outside of the city limits (not to be confused with the Northridge north of Dayton), where they still have Springfield addresses and still consider themselves Springfielders, and in neighborhoods that are still popularly regarded as being part of Springfield, but where they are no longer counted in the city's official population as they are just outside the city limits, and where they are in the Northeastern school district rather than the city schools. There are also a few other neighborhoods just outside the city limits saw people from Springfield move to them that could be described in much the same fashion.

So the city's population decline in those respects isn't nearly as severe as the official city population counts would make it seem.

But even taking this largely mitigating factor into account, the Springfield/Northridge area combined population is still about ten thousand off of its peak (prior to the recent immigration influx) and the mitigating factors I have cited don't alleviate the impact to Springfield's older core neighborhoods (other than the very significant fact that Northridge folks still tend to shop, seek medical services, etc inside the city limits, unlike, say Dayton, where the suburban areas taken as a single entity tend to be largely self-supporting in terms of retail, etc and where residents can often find their medical care, etc, in the suburbs if they choose) or to the city tax revenues, or the impact to the city school district stemming from the loss of these students.

[Doughboy1918]

Originally Posted by robertbrianbush

No, Hamilton is another old industrial city with its own identity as a city, similar to Middletown. Now, virtually any other community in that region could be considered a suburb. Hamilton, Middletown, Springfield, and of course Dayton and Cincinnati themselves, are the five that wouldn't fit that description, that don't see themselves as suburban, and are the older, industrial core cities that the surrounding suburban areas developed around.

niche.com identifies both Butler County communities as being suburbs;
https://www.niche.com/places-to-live...ton-butler-oh/
https://www.niche.com/places-to-live...own-butler-oh/

I agree Springfield is not a suburb, but it's also of my opinion that somewhere can be a self-contained industrial town and a suburb. Middletown and Hamilton both fit this because they are almost completely and directly surrounded by dense suburbia. Similar examples elsewhere would be Joliet, Illinois, Independence, Missouri and Elyria, Ohio.

[robertbrianbush]

Originally Posted by Doughboy1918

niche.com identifies both Butler County communities as being suburbs;
https://www.niche.com/places-to-live...ton-butler-oh/
https://www.niche.com/places-to-live...own-butler-oh/

I agree Springfield is not a suburb, but it's also of my opinion that somewhere can be a self-contained industrial town and a suburb. Middletown and Hamilton both fit this because they are almost completely and directly surrounded by dense suburbia. Similar examples elsewhere would be Joliet, Illinois, Independence, Missouri and Elyria, Ohio.

Nobody in Middletown or Hamilton is going to agree with you that they are suburbs. People in Monroe, Springboro, etc will agree with you that those communities are suburbs, but no
Middletown or Hamilton. I have lived in or been closely associated with Middletown for 51 years and have literally never heard a single resident of the city refer to it as a suburb or the burbs , etc. If they use those terms they are referring to the surrounding communities, not the city itself.
Do people in Joliet, Independence, or Elyria consider themselves to be suburbanites?

[Doughboy1918]

Originally Posted by robertbrianbush

Nobody in Middletown or Hamilton is going to agree with you that they are suburbs. People in Monroe, Springboro, etc will agree with you that those communities are suburbs, but no
Middletown or Hamilton. I have lived in or been closely associated with Middletown for 51 years and have literally never heard a single resident of the city refer to it as a suburb or the burbs , etc. If they use those terms they are referring to the surrounding communities, not the city itself.
Do people in Joliet, Independence, or Elyria consider themselves to be suburbanites?

I think your definition seems to comply with inner-ring suburbs, which I agree, neither are. Rather, they are outlying suburbs.

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by Doughboy1918

I agree Springfield is not a suburb, but it's also of my opinion that somewhere can be a self-contained industrial town and a suburb. Middletown and Hamilton both fit this because they are almost completely and directly surrounded by dense suburbia.

Middletown and Hamilton are old, post-industrial cities that would exist and would continue to exist with or without either of the larger cities to the north and south. They have distinct identities of their own, and do not tie themselves with either of the larger cities to the north and south.

And what about Middletown? Would it be a suburb of Cincinnati, or Dayton? Both pretty equidistant.

Just because your opinion tells you something is true does not make it true.

[midwest1]

Originally Posted by Doughboy1918

I think your definition seems to comply with inner-ring suburbs, which I agree, neither are. Rather, they are outlying suburbs.

Argh.....
You are a broken record dude.

Question for you....


Is Middletown an outlying suburb of Dayton?.....or an outlying suburb of Cincinnati???


Or is it a bi-Suburb???


Answer ..it is an independent city that is actually playing quite a major role in stitching together it's two most famous suburbs...Dayton and Cincinnati.

Btw...Mason, widely considered a major northern Cincinnati suburb...is also Middletown's most distant southern suburb. Lebanon too has many ex-Middletonians....having been closer to Middletown historically than it was to Cincy/Dayton.

In the 1980's, Armco, the huge Middletown steel company moved its headquarters from Middletown to Mason. This move brought loads of people and money to Mason...from the north.

[midwest1]

Here is an example of what is happening in Middletown...which btw, is the only municipality that spans both Butler and Warren counties...the I-75 area of Middletown is in Warren County....that counties only I-75 exit

This is huge for Middletown...both in terms of development, but also in building a partnership with Warren County...

https://www.journal-news.com/news/tr...HGK73D3CXGTQE/

[Doughboy1918]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Middletown and Hamilton are old, post-industrial cities that would exist and would continue to exist with or without either of the larger cities to the north and south. They have distinct identities of their own, and do not tie themselves with either of the larger cities to the north and south.

Originally Posted by midwest1

Argh.....
You are a broken record dude.

The journalist and filmmaker Peter Davis once wrote about Hamilton considering it to be the quintessential American town, and part of the reason for that was because of the fact as he put it;

"a city, a self-contained town, a suburb, a satellite in the orbits of both Cincinnati and Dayton, a minor metropolitan cluster, a country seat, a bump on the plain, a galactic microdot where 63.189 people want to see what will happen next."

You can read the whole excerpt of what he wrote via this link
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1...bhbometown-is/

Originally Posted by midwest1

Is Middletown an outlying suburb of Dayton?.....or an outlying suburb of Cincinnati???

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

And what about Middletown? Would it be a suburb of Cincinnati, or Dayton? Both pretty equidistant.

Cincinnati, according to niche.com. But I'd also assume the same with it being included as the third largest city in the metro.