not to beat a dead horse... (Scranton: city hall, how much, house)

[weluvpa]

Originally Posted by scrantonluna

We've been over this before; where would they run to? They do not have another facility that I know of, and even with all the support from the city, they are still supposedly short on funds, so how would they ever continue to operate?

Maybe they should start looking for places to send their animals if they can't do it alone. Scranton is a city and its not supposed to be in the animal welfare business or any type of corp welfare for that matter.

It sucks to say it but the GWC should close its doors if it can't not find a way to properly manage its resources and facilites. Honestly maybe they should put Ms. Miller and her obvious lack of management skills to the curb and hire someone that can raise money.......Stewardship and fundraising go hand in hand and lets just say that Ms. Miller really isn't a good steward of the GWC and its mission statement nor is she any good at fund raising.


I love animals but this issue with the GWC is just dragging out and I think thats what Doherty wants so he could come in and save the day and rescue the GWC. Most people can't remember yesterday nevermind the fact that Doherty is partly responsible for the current conditions at the GWC.

I would like the GWC move or close for the benefit of the animals. Thats what this is about right? The animals and not whether we have them in Nay Aug or not. They need to go.

[scrantonluna]

I think they need to bring in the AZA and see what changes they can recommend in the short-term to make the existing center more accomodating to the animals, then make city funding, including utility usage and use of the structure, dependant on GWC's compliancy to the AZA.

In the past I have mentioned that it might not be a bad idea to bring in someone specifically for the financial and PR goals, and I still think that would go a long way toward improving conditions.

I really don't see this as an "all or nothing" solution; I feel even MBS would be comfortable if GWC would at least seek AZA compliance and make small, managable improvements and revise their mission parameters. It only makes sense for the city to ask this of GWC as a sign that their 'investement' is being used wisely.

[weluvpa]

My point is why do we need to even have this questionable facility here in the first place? Why do we need to be troubled and bothered by dealing with the GWC and short comings at all?

There should be no deal over compliance. They need to go before this becomes a bigger problem for the city, the GWC needs to go out on its own in the private world and vacate the municipal facility that it currently occupies.

Thats it. They need to go before the taxpayers and the city are on the hook with a substandard facility because of a campaign year promise and what not that has gotten us to this point already.

[mbs7]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

What was wrong with their former facilty? Why was the GWC so QUICK to come to Nay Aug AT THE MAYORS REQUEST!

Don't sit here and play off Doherty's involvement in the GWC. I'll beat dollars to donuts that he had urged Ms. Miller to try and find a MAIN ATTRACTION for the GWC and NAY AUG during his campaign year. The treehouse, bridge the NEW TIGERS will be in the forefront of his accomplishmenst over the last 7 years because they are the only things that he did.

If he wasn't so interested in the GWC then why was he such a part of the story about the new tigers?????? Why was his name in double point spacing and caps in the middle of the article when it was supposed to be about the new tigers and the GWC?

Lets not forget the DOHERTY pushed name the tigers contest.......Just another way to promote the park as a accomplishment and keep it in the news using the new tigers to do it.

SECOND HAND ANIMALS..........I didn't think that these cats, that are being taken away from their mother to come here and be used as pawns, were even old enough to be considered second hand. If they are so rare and only babies then I would think that they would have no problems going to a zoo or a center that is better suited to raise them correctly and help to preserve their RARE SPECIES.

What is wrong with these two cubs that they deserve to damned to a life of cramped and under funded spaces? I would think that if Ms. Miller truely cared about the animals the way that some of you want us to think then she would have said that they could not and should not take in these healthy cats that deserve a better place then the GWC.

Lets face it these are not some cats that were illegally raised or circus misfits or what not, these are two rare healthy cubs that deserve a chance at a good life.

I THINK THAT THE GWC AND MS. MILLER ARE ONLY CONCERNED ABOUT USING THESE CATS TO INCREASE FUNDING FOR THEIR CENTER. THE MAYOR IS ONLY CONCERNED ABOUT CAMPAIGNING ON NAY AUG AND THE NEW MAIN ATTRACTION. ITS A WIN WIN FOR DOHERTY AND MILLER AND A LOSING SITUATION ALL THE WAY AROUND FOR THESE TWO HELPLESS CUBS THAT ARE JUST ANOTHER SCRANTON POLITICAL FOOTBALL.

I gave you the answer....The GWC needs to start looking for new location(their financial mistakes and poor management are not our problem) and they do need to find a proper home for these cubs while they are young enough to place somewhere. The city needs to stay out of the animal business and DOherty needs to go away.

As I've said before, I don't really know what's going on in either Miller's mind or Doherty's mind. However, I can tell you that it **is** hard to find homes for these animals. I don't know for certain, but I'm reasonably sure that neither of these poor cubs has the pedigree necessary to make them of interest to an accredited zoo. What happens at these unaccredited facilities is that the lions, tigers, etc. are bred in an irresponsible manner, which means that closely related animals are mated, or that animals from different sub-species, who would never even meet each other in the wild, are mated. This results in animals which, for the most part, would not do well in the wild should the day come when they might be reintroduced. At accredited facilities, when endangered animals are bred, that takes place within a carefully monitored program in which meticulous records are kept to ensure that the gene pool stays in good shape, and the animals that result are healthy and as close as possible to the genetically viable wild populations that the breeding program seeks to preserve. The answer to the problem, really, is stricter USDA rules that would not allow **any** facility--accredited or not--to just keep breeding cubs that are inbred and/or of no genetic type that was ever found in the wild. Absent such rules, there is and will be a problem with what to do with all of the poorly bred cubs that get discarded for various reasons. That being said, I agree that the GWC is a very bad place for any tiger cub, regardless of its pedigree.

[mbs7]

Originally Posted by scrantonluna

I think they need to bring in the AZA and see what changes they can recommend in the short-term to make the existing center more accomodating to the animals, then make city funding, including utility usage and use of the structure, dependant on GWC's compliancy to the AZA.

In the past I have mentioned that it might not be a bad idea to bring in someone specifically for the financial and PR goals, and I still think that would go a long way toward improving conditions.

I really don't see this as an "all or nothing" solution; I feel even MBS would be comfortable if GWC would at least seek AZA compliance and make small, managable improvements and revise their mission parameters. It only makes sense for the city to ask this of GWC as a sign that their 'investement' is being used wisely.

If the AZA were brought into the picture, and the GWC had a realistic plan for getting AZA accreditation within a reasonable time frame--say maybe 5 years--and over the 5 years the GWC made steady progress toward accreditation, then I would be happy. I do think, however, that such a plan would entail huge changes--and I'm guessing that in any realistic world, those changes would begin with a rather severe reduction in the number of animals kept at the center and with the addition of a center manager with a much different philosophy of animal care than Ms. Miller has. I have a feeling that Ms. Miller would not be pleased with such an arrangement, but maybe I'm wrong. If I am wrong, and the GWC would accept and follow such a plan, then that would be wonderful.

[mbs7]

Originally Posted by weluvpa

My point is why do we need to even have this questionable facility here in the first place? Why do we need to be troubled and bothered by dealing with the GWC and short comings at all?

There should be no deal over compliance. They need to go before this becomes a bigger problem for the city, the GWC needs to go out on its own in the private world and vacate the municipal facility that it currently occupies.

Thats it. They need to go before the taxpayers and the city are on the hook with a substandard facility because of a campaign year promise and what not that has gotten us to this point already.

No matter what the politics, one thing I'm really concerned about at the GWC is safety--particularly with 2 new tigers in residence. Right now they're cubs. They won't be cute and cuddly for long. Reba was, by all accounts, an exceptionally docile animal. Who knows what these tigers will be like? From what I've seen so far, neither the staff at the GWC nor the old zoo building itself are up to the challenges of housing these animals in a safe (let alone humane) manner. Personally, I think it would be in the city's best interest to get a much better handle on this situation before something tragic happens. There has already been one small fire at that old building.

[mbs7]

Originally Posted by mbs7

If the AZA were brought into the picture, and the GWC had a realistic plan for getting AZA accreditation within a reasonable time frame--say maybe 5 years--and over the 5 years the GWC made steady progress toward accreditation, then I would be happy. I do think, however, that such a plan would entail huge changes--and I'm guessing that in any realistic world, those changes would begin with a rather severe reduction in the number of animals kept at the center and with the addition of a center manager with a much different philosophy of animal care than Ms. Miller has. I have a feeling that Ms. Miller would not be pleased with such an arrangement, but maybe I'm wrong. If I am wrong, and the GWC would accept and follow such a plan, then that would be wonderful.

I just wanted to add that the AZA does have a mentoring program. It's aimed primarily at institutions that are planning on applying for AZA membership within 6 mos. to a year. I seriously doubt that the GWC could be ready to submit an AZA application within that time frame, but if the GWC were to become genuinely interested in trying to meet AZA standards, making inquiries about the mentoring program would probably be a good place to start.

[Summering]

The local radio is to having a naming contest...........
So, if anyone can think of two names send them in ( or however they are collecting them)

[mbs7]

Originally Posted by Summering

The local radio is to having a naming contest...........
So, if anyone can think of two names send them in ( or however they are collecting them)

I won't be sending in any names--I don't think they'd like my suggestions: "Please! & Help us!," "Why? & Oh, Why?" "Prisoner in Stripes #1 & Prisoner in Stripes #2," "Folly & Sadness"....I could keep going, but I won't.

[scrantonluna]

This was posted on the times website:

" You wanna kow what is a real shame is that all you good for nothin people do is complain. All the animals there are trully
cared for by a magnificent director and her staff. None of you know how hard it is care for the animals. But you are right in one thing that the building is not up to date and is a bit small. The zoo just can't keep relying on the city for the money. A portion of the money for the animals comes from patrons(you) who visit the zoo and straight from the directors pocket.

p.s. Anonymous animal lover those cubs were bred for the conservation of the species not the zoo "