North Carolina development thread. (Charlotte, Raleigh: best place to live, selling, small town)

[HP91]

Originally Posted by Heel82

The reason it was split was because they reframed how they look at commuting patterns. Wake’s population meant it was designated the anchor county but RTP’s location meant that commuters mostly flowed to Durham County instead of the way every other anchored metro works. There is probably more commuting between Wake and Durham than most metro counties, and it’s definitely the largest in the state, but it flows the wrong way so it doesn’t count. Regardless, Durham City bleeds into Raleigh which bleeds into Morrisville. I guess I could see wanting more density there if that’s your thing, but there isn’t much of any difference or tons of empty lots around there.

The way the census does this is antiquated...its absolutely one metro. Another example is in Brunswick Co where the census refuses to split up a county so there is a tug of war between Wilmington and Myrtle Beach where the traffic flow from one end of Brunswick goes to MB and the other to Wilmington.

I can only believe that as decades go by that new statistical categories are created that addresses these and doesn't shift all of the $$ and numbers one way or the other.

[raleighmsa]

Originally Posted by Trent Y

@raleighmsa
I won't quote all that for sake of the thread lol but I hear what you are saying. We just hold different opinions on the"needs" for DTR I guess. The only thing I really disagree about is that by my count DTR has 16 total buildings over 200ft lol and Bellevue being an outlier example for various reasons. I just don't feel as strongly about it. As long as DTR is growing and doing well, especially at street level, I don't need it to look like Charlotte or whatever other city that gets lots of corporate high rises. For my personal taste I would rather city a core that looks broad and dense and makes me think "wow that looks walkable and interesting for blocks and blocks" rather than "wow I can see the top of that skyline for miles." Not that those are exclusive of course.

Thanks for your patience with me and for taking time to reply. I will, however, insist on the 200 footers count, although I must admit I forgot to count the Bank of America building at North Hills:

• One Progress Plaza (277 ft/21 floors)
• SkyHouse Raleigh (264 ft/23 floors)
• Captrust Tower at North Hills (260 ft/17 floors)
• Red Hat Tower (240 ft/19 floors)
• Bank of America Tower at North Hills (228 ft/18 floors)
• The Dillon (226 ft/17 floors)
• Charter Square South (215 ft/11 floors)
• Quorum Center (200 ft/15 floors)

Let me know if I missed something... Of course, I am not going to count proposals, or the buildings under construction (i.e. Tower 4, which is going to be 250 ft/20 floors tall). If and when the proposed buildings are built, we can revisit the list - and it will be a rather impressive one.

Originally Posted by Trent Y

For example, I'm sure you saw this already, credit to Jack.

I'm really excited for that. Again for my eyes, that to me is going to make Raleigh look quite large. With still plenty of room to grow and maybe get a couple monsters eventually. Rather than let's say OKC.

Impressive height for sure, but small footprint.

Yes, I have seen Jack's images and they all look impressive. When it comes to aerial photos, it is easier for us to get impressed, though, because of the rather large number of proposed buildings, which will eliminate many un(der)developed lots. Not that I doubt the vastly improved feel at the street level, even after a third of them are built. My concern about the height caps will become easier to "agree" with and share in the next 10 years, although it will be too late to fix the problem then. Hopefully, we'll get rid of the current Planning Dept and City Council before then.

By the way, Downtown OKC doesn't really have a small footprint. They got the buildings that are the hardest to get - skyscrapers - and from now on they can add "fillers" without hurting their image. Unfortunately, we do not have the large corporate entities to "demand" a few nice towers, at least at this point, but 3-4 buildings over 400ft should not be that hard to get for Downtown Raleigh.

Originally Posted by Trent Y

It's fine to have either opinion obviously but for me it's just confusing to bemoan the new N&O site when it looks like it's going to be a gem even if it doesn't scrape the clouds.

I respect your opinion. although calling The Nexus a gem is a bit of a stretch. If you like alleys, then this project is nice. Personally, I want the pedestrian activity to be along the streets, not in the middle of a block. I do hope this part of the project gets rejected by the City Council, at least.

[gsoboi78]

The project on the News and Observer site looks very impressive and will have 4 towers. Hopefully we will see something similar on the News and Record site in Greensboro on a slightly smaller scale with the convention center. I'd like to see at least one tower even if its 12 or 15 stories.

[Trent Y]

Originally Posted by raleighmsa

Thanks for your patience with me and for taking time to reply. I will, however, insist on the 200 footers count, although I must admit I forgot to count the Bank of America building at North Hills:

• One Progress Plaza (277 ft/21 floors)
• SkyHouse Raleigh (264 ft/23 floors)
• Captrust Tower at North Hills (260 ft/17 floors)
• Red Hat Tower (240 ft/19 floors)
• Bank of America Tower at North Hills (228 ft/18 floors)
• The Dillon (226 ft/17 floors)
• Charter Square South (215 ft/11 floors)
• Quorum Center (200 ft/15 floors)

Let me know if I missed something... Of course, I am not going to count proposals, or the buildings under construction (i.e. Tower 4, which is going to be 250 ft/20 floors tall). If and when the proposed buildings are built, we can revisit the list - and it will be a rather impressive one.



Yes, I have seen Jack's images and they all look impressive. When it comes to aerial photos, it is easier for us to get impressed, though, because of the rather large number of proposed buildings, which will eliminate many un(der)developed lots. Not that I doubt the vastly improved feel at the street level, even after a third of them are built. My concern about the height caps will become easier to "agree" with and share in the next 10 years, although it will be too late to fix the problem then. Hopefully, we'll get rid of the current Planning Dept and City Council before then.

By the way, Downtown OKC doesn't really have a small footprint. They got the buildings that are the hardest to get - skyscrapers - and from now on they can add "fillers" without hurting their image. Unfortunately, we do not have the large corporate entities to "demand" a few nice towers, at least at this point, but 3-4 buildings over 400ft should not be that hard to get for Downtown Raleigh.


I respect your opinion. although calling The Nexus a gem is a bit of a stretch. If you like alleys, then this project is nice. Personally, I want the pedestrian activity to be along the streets, not in the middle of a block. I do hope this part of the project gets rejected by the City Council, at least.

Ok so counting total over 200ft. This is just what I can find between wiki and Emporis which seems to be more reliable. I know you are connected so maybe you have more solid facts to verify.

PNC
BB&T
Wells Fargo
One Progress
FNB (not finished but over 200ft already)
Skyhouse
Wake County Justice Center
Wake County Public Safety Center
RedHat
Dillon
Holiday Inn
Charter Square south
One Bank of America Square (whatever they call it now days)
Sheraton
Marriot
Quorum Center

So 16 and that's not with North Hills or proposals. Whether that's 100% accurate idk. But that's all I can find on the internet. But like I was saying. That doesn't really put us that much behind a city like Memphis. Though Memphis has more sub 200ft buildings and more variation 200-400ft then us. But if we get even 3/4s of the current proposal built, we'll have a core almost around Richmond size but also have more height then Richmond in our tallest towers. I just don't mind that at all.

[Trent Y]

@raleighmsa I also don't understand why it can't be both for the Nexus? It's going to have street retail. Both that and the plaza/alley or whatever I think is also a really cool vision. Looks like a big box store might even occupy the large retail spot. That whole block is going to be buzzing inside and out. 4 towers that break up the block and create a recreational/shopping/eating destination right within the core that also flows with the street acitivity. I respect if you don't personally like the idea, but objectively I just can't see it being viewed as a "bad" thing.

[raleighmsa]

Originally Posted by Trent Y

Ok so counting total over 200ft. This is just what I can find between wiki and Emporis which seems to be more reliable. I know you are connected so maybe you have more solid facts to verify.

PNC
BB&T
Wells Fargo
One Progress
FNB (not finished but over 200ft already)
Skyhouse
Wake County Justice Center
Wake County Public Safety Center
RedHat
Dillon
Holiday Inn
Charter Square south
One Bank of America Square (whatever they call it now days)
Sheraton
Marriot
Quorum Center

So 16 and that's not with North Hills or proposals. Whether that's 100% accurate idk. But that's all I can find on the internet. But like I was saying. That doesn't really put us that much behind a city like Memphis. Though Memphis has more sub 200ft buildings and more variation 200-400ft then us. But if we get even 3/4s of the current proposal built, we'll have a core almost around Richmond size but also have more height then Richmond in our tallest towers. I just don't mind that at all.

I was talking about 200-footers, not including anything above the 200-299 ft category. However, I stand corrected. I looked at Emporis, but they have buried a bunch of buildings in another section (page 4), because they had the approximate, not the exact height I am a good friend of John Cahill, who is the main contact for Emporis when it comes to Raleigh, so I am going to give him a hard time for getting me in trouble Sorry for the confusion.

[raleighmsa]

Originally Posted by Trent Y

@raleighmsa I also don't understand why it can't be both for the Nexus? It's going to have street retail. Both that and the plaza/alley or whatever I think is also a really cool vision. Looks like a big box store might even occupy the large retail spot. That whole block is going to be buzzing inside and out. 4 towers that break up the block and create a recreational/shopping/eating destination right within the core that also flows with the street acitivity. I respect if you don't personally like the idea, but objectively I just can't see it being viewed as a "bad" thing.

If this happens -the alley - then you will not get the amount of retail that you envision, nor the street-level activity we hope to see along Salisbury, Martin and McDowell Streets. This is one of those "wait and see" things, so I will not insist, for now. Nevertheless, the gaps between the buildings should be undesired. There have been so many debates about creating a seamless street-level experience and I am surprised that forumers have not revolted. I don't mean you and a few others, but those who cry all the time about how skyscrapers do not provide a decent urban experience at the street-level - a point I do not agree with, as it depends on the developer, not the type of the building. I guess the tune would have been different if the proposed buildings were over 400ft. I hope to be wrong, but until we see the final plans for the other buildings we should be VERY cautious. If the alley gets approved and receives the bulk of the retail, the developers will easily opt out from adding retail to the rest of the buildings. Such alley would work fine in cities where high densities have been in place for decades, but I doubt seriously that it will work well for us. Just my opinion, of course, but one look at the site plan and you will be able to see the problem. Look for the entrances to/exits from the parking and to the alley

[CLT1985]

List of tallest buildings in North Carolina
]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...North_Carolina


I see Raleigh has some building over 400 feet

[CLT1985]

Even Hotel at that the botton of photo ans Home 2 a top at 20 floors




Phot by Gman430

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by HP91

The way the census does this is antiquated...its absolutely one metro.

It's still one metro, but a CSA instead of an MSA. Both are types of metropolitan areas based on different commuting thresholds.