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Sorry to dig up this thread again for the Nth time, but I found it through a google search, and I don't think the last poster was fully aware of exactly what sources he was quoting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl
Guidance:
No vehicle shall make a right turn at a "red circular light" if the movement is prohibited by an appropriate sign (§20-158, b, 2a).
As you've cited, this is a general statute, and is the only statute I can find that mentions turning right on a red light. It does not mention red arrow stop lights at all. It has to then be assumed that "red circular light" applies to any red stop light, including arrows. You will not find it mentioned anywhere in state law saying turning right at a red arrow is illegal. The only case where it specifically mentions you can't turn right on red is when there is a sign explicitly prohibiting it at that intersection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl
No vehicle shall make a right turn at a red arrow unless the movement is allowed by an appropriate sign (MUTCD Sections 4D.04 and 4D.05).
As you've cited, this is part of the MUTCD, or "Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices", this manual is federal standards by which traffic signs, road surface markings, and signals should be designed, installed, and used. It does NOT itself set traffic rules unless the NC legislature makes a law saying it does (which there is incentive to do in terms of receiving federal highway-aid funding). However, NC law applies the MUTCD in the following way:
Quote:
§ 136-30. Uniform signs and other traffic control devices on highways, streets, and public vehicular areas.
(a) State Highway System. - The Department of Transportation may number and mark highways in the State highway system. All traffic signs and other traffic control devices placed on a highway in the State highway system must conform to the Uniform Manual. The Department of Transportation shall have the power to control all signs within the right-of-way of highways in the State highway system. The Department of Transportation may erect signs directing persons to roads and places of importance.
(b) Municipal Street System. - All traffic signs and other traffic control devices placed on a municipal street system street must conform to the appearance criteria of the Uniform Manual.
So except for on the state highway system, there is nothing in the law that says the MUTCD decides how traffic devices are used, only how they must look. On municipal streets, there is nothing prohibiting drivers from turning right on a red arrow.
Sorry to dig up this thread again for the Nth time, but I found it through a google search, and I don't think the last poster was fully aware of exactly what sources he was quoting.
As you've cited, this is a general statute, and is the only statute I can find that mentions turning right on a red light. It does not mention red arrow stop lights at all. It has to then be assumed that "red circular light" applies to any red stop light, including arrows. You will not find it mentioned anywhere in state law saying turning right at a red arrow is illegal. The only case where it specifically mentions you can't turn right on red is when there is a sign explicitly prohibiting it at that intersection.
As you've cited, this is part of the MUTCD, or "Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices", this manual is federal standards by which traffic signs, road surface markings, and signals should be designed, installed, and used. It does NOT itself set traffic rules unless the NC legislature makes a law saying it does (which there is incentive to do in terms of receiving federal highway-aid funding). However, NC law applies the MUTCD in the following way:
So except for on the state highway system, there is nothing in the law that says the MUTCD decides how traffic devices are used, only how they must look. On municipal streets, there is nothing prohibiting drivers from turning right on a red arrow.
Don't be sorry. Intellectually Honest discussion is always welcome from me.
Now, lets get into the fun part.
I read your entire post and you are correct that the North Carolina General Assembly is mute on Red Arrows - they say absolutely nothing in the law.
So, I went back to the NC DOT manual again and found the appropriate ordinance... and it is as I posted (see below). NORTH CAROLINA DOT does not allow right turn on red arrows - under the conditions I already stated.
So, what we have here, it seems to me, is a failure to communicate. NCDOT says one thing, yet the North Carolina General Assembly says nothing, so you would think the NCDOT ruling is unenforceable.
However, if you search for the NCDOT Authority to create rules, you come up with the second picture I posted. In it, the NCDOT says that it TAKES the authority to create AND ENFORCE traffic laws and that it can do so - as long as those laws DO NOT CONFLICT with the NCGA.
This seemed a little wacky to me, so I even called the DOT and NCGA who confirmed over the phone that this is the case.
So, there you have it. The NC DOT, POLICE, and Traffic Courts all say that the DOT has the authority to create these laws without the say-so of the General Assembly. And since people are getting ticketed, going to court and their fines are upheld, I would say that this is a closed issue - that is unless you want to take it to the NC Supreme court and challenge the Authority of the DOT to "make ordinances." I am not up to that myself.
And if you ask 100 cops and you get 90 percent of them saying it is OK to make the turn, I prefer not to run into the 10 percent who will ticket me and send me to traffic courts who also says it is illegal.
Now if you want to argue that this only applies to "highways" where the DOT has authority, then I would say that I don't know of ANY red arrows that are not on Highways (not defined as the high speed Interstates) but using the legal definition in which most mayor roads in a city are State Highways.
EDIT:
Researching further, I see that there is an entity called CDOT (The Charlotte Department Of Transportation) They are installing yellow arrow signals. I do not know if they have anything to do with the red arrows, but if they are, then I have to assume it is by a similar hierarchical authority (NCGA <-->> NCDOT and NCGA <-->> CDOT).
Last edited by blktoptrvl; 03-05-2015 at 03:26 PM..
LOL. I had an idiot behind me honking today when I didn't immediately turn left when we got the green light...he apparently didn't care that people across the intersection from me who were going straight have the right of way. If people get angry with you, just ignore them. I'm convinced that 99.99% of the drivers in this state have absolutely no clue what's going on most of the time.
This thread is chock full of bad information that will sooner or later get someone a ticket; or worse an accident.
For a circular red light, you can make a right turn after coming to a stop as long as there is no sign saying otherwise.
For a red arrow light, you must stop and wait for green unless there is a sign saying otherwise.
4.2 No Right Turn on Red NCGS Authority: §20-158(b)(2a) NCAC Authority: N/A TEPPL Reference: N/A Ordinance Required: Yes Ordinance Type: 4 Overlap Restriction: None Typical Signs: R10-11, R10-11a Other Signs: R10-11b, R10-17a Guidance: No vehicle shall make a right turn at a "red circular light" if the movement is prohibited by an appropriate sign (§20-158, b, 2a). No vehicle shall make a right turn at a red arrow unless the movement is allowed by an appropriate sign (MUTCD Sections 4D.04 and 4D.05).
That's what I learned and what makes sense - if it's the "ball" it is allowed (unless sign prohibiting of course) - but if it was made into a red arrow - NO Turn.
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