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The general economic argument from Upstate successionists is that Downstates Uber-Liberal politics impose a crushing tax burden upon NYS. Without the city's influence on local politics, more conservative fiscal policies and taxation would help to make the region a draw for buisness relocation. The South has grown becuase buisnesses have less taxes and can pay on a lower wage scale.
Yes, while that is true, the cost of living in many Upstate areas is on par with, if not less than many places in the South. People get caught up on property taxes, but forget about other costs and fees that might be higher in some instances in the South like wheel, vehicle and highway taxes/fees. Then, you have to deal with the fact that the South has the highest crime rate out of any region and the Northeast has the lowest crime rate of any region. Also, the schools can be an issue as well.
In the south, taxes are TOO low. I know that sounds very "socialist" but after living in NC for 13 years and seeing how long it took for the extremely over-strained infrastructure to be improved, overcrowded schools, lack of lighting on streets and highways and un-checked sprawl accelerating all of the aforementioned problems; I'd say they probably need to raise their taxes a little. There IS an equilibrium for taxes just like everything else in economics. It's not always "the lower the better". But agreed, I don't think anybody would argue that the taxes in NYS need to go down and stablize.
In the south, taxes are TOO low. I know that sounds very "socialist" but after living in NC for 13 years and seeing how long it took for the extremely over-strained infrastructure to be improved, overcrowded schools, lack of lighting on streets and highways and un-checked sprawl accelerating all of the aforementioned problems; I'd say they probably need to raise their taxes a little. There IS an equilibrium for taxes just like everything else in economics. It's not always "the lower the better". But agreed, I don't think anybody would argue that the taxes in NYS need to go down and stablize.
All of this is so true. People need to count up all of the costs, in a sense, when thinking about where to live.
Isn't NC actually raising taxes?
Also, I think counties could start doing what the state won't by consolidating law enforcement agencies, water districts, fire districts and consolidating many of these school districts without high schools(i.e.-Lyncourt, Menands, Maplewood, Wyanantskill, Abraham Wing and Hopevale Union Free, among others). I think those are some reasonable things that could be done on a local level to save NYers some $. You would have to make some cuts possibly with these moves, as you wouldn't save unless that occurs. Here's an interesting article that gets into some of this: Syracuse University professor asks: Should we tear down the walls between school districts? | News from The Post-Standard -
Also, here are some studies also relavant to consolidation: http://www.cgr.org/
I noted another on that site and that is consolidating communities thst have a city and town under the same name. So, places like Ithaca, Batavia, Elmira, Corning, Watertown, Plattsburgh, Amsterdam and some others should possibly think about consolidating as one. This can be done without changing school district lines and just do this for governmental reasons. You could possibly do this for bigger villages with towns of the same name like say, Horseheads or maybe Homer.
Another thing I thought about is that some bigger villages should think about pushing the state into becoming cities or use the Pennsylvania model of boroughs, which are independant in terms of taxation. Places that I have in mind that could possibly do this are: Kenmore, Johnson City, Endicott, Hamburg, North Syracuse and Baldwinsville, among some others. This would keep the residents of these communities from paying village and town taxes and this could be a formula for possibly smaller villages as well.
Then, you have villages like North Hornell and West Carthage that could be dissolved into Hornell and Carthage, respectively. This would cut down on government, but also keeps that former community within the larger community it has always been a part of in terms of school district and other services that were covered for that general area.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 01-04-2010 at 12:08 PM..
I dont think it would be a good idea, western NY is a cesspool of corruption and those people are not capable of governing themselves, nor could their businesses survive a rivalry with NYC. Imagine what would happen to Xerox Kodak and Bausch and Lomb in even 30% of the people and businesses in NYC stopped using their product due to some stupid us versus them NYC Welfare State rivalry. Many people in western NY honestly believe they are carrying NYC.
I dont think it would be a good idea, western NY is a cesspool of corruption and those people are not capable of governing themselves, nor could their businesses survive a rivalry with NYC. Imagine what would happen to Xerox Kodak and Bausch and Lomb in even 30% of the people and businesses in NYC stopped using their product due to some stupid us versus them NYC Welfare State rivalry. Many people in western NY honestly believe they are carrying NYC.
Once again (this is like the 5th time now) I am not for dividing the state but must rebut a horrible argument. Come on, people, can you stop?
Most Americans have issues with China. Are you gonna stop buying "Made in China" stuff? Nope, there is far too much Made in China stuff that it's pretty much impossible.
And every office needs a copy machine. Xerox could move their headquarters to Darfur and still be profitable.
I dont think it would be a good idea, western NY is a cesspool of corruption and those people are not capable of governing themselves, nor could their businesses survive a rivalry with NYC. Imagine what would happen to Xerox Kodak and Bausch and Lomb in even 30% of the people and businesses in NYC stopped using their product due to some stupid us versus them NYC Welfare State rivalry. Many people in western NY honestly believe they are carrying NYC.
As a former upstater, I will say this point is one of the main reasons I would have liked to see the state divided. I did not like the idea of my taxes going anywhere near the people who think that they are so high and mighty, and we were just to stupid. I notice that alot of NYC people have weekend homes in upstate, if we are a cesspool of corruption why bother they could easily enough go into one of the other surrounding states and enjoy life. Just because we did not grow up in a huge city does not mean we do not know they ways of the world. Get off your high horse and look into a mirror you are no different physically then everyone but mentally I feel you have a complex. Also if businesses in NYC would stop buying from others because of a state split they would have the problem not us.
Last edited by FutureBrennanDad; 01-04-2010 at 10:43 PM..
Reason: Changed wording
The one argument that holds any weight is that Downstate politics adversely effect Upstate business. Likely true, but I don't think state-level politics play nearly as large a part on taxes as most folks are claiming.
The largest taxes you will pay ANYWHERE in NYS are your property taxes. Upstate/Western NY has an absurd property value-to-tax ratio. Look at your property tax bill when it comes, the majority of it likely goes to your local school district....the rest goes to other local government/utilities....how is that Downstate's fault? Not one cent of that money goes out of your county.
You've made some very good points about the inflated cost of local government, but left out a key factor. Local government is so expensive in the state because the political power public employee unions have over state officials and the laws that are in the books (Taylor Law), plus the crushing cost of state Medicare mandates. So, while the money does indeed never leave the county, the cost of government that causes those taxes to be so high in the first place is dictated by our inept and utterly corrupt state legislature's subservience to special interests. This legislature has a structure that puts all decision-making making power in two people. Currently, they are one man from from Manhattan and one from Queens.
In our imaginary independent Upstate, adopting the status quo would of course be a disaster due to the high cost of government, made worse by the lack of a Downstate subsidy. The key would be to start fresh with new laws that allow for a lower cost of government.
I can't believe this thread is still going and that people are still claiming Upstate NY/Western NY/Buffalo/whatever gives more money than it gets back from Downstate NY. Raw numbers-wise, there is no comparison....the proof has been plastered many times all over this thread. The one argument that holds any weight is that Downstate politics adversely effect Upstate business. Likely true, but I don't think state-level politics play nearly as large a part on taxes as most folks are claiming.
The largest taxes you will pay ANYWHERE in NYS are your property taxes. Upstate/Western NY has an absurd property value-to-tax ratio. Look at your property tax bill when it comes, the majority of it likely goes to your local school district....the rest goes to other local government/utilities....how is that Downstate's fault? Not one cent of that money goes out of your county. Your property taxes blow because Upstate/Western NY was once an incredible manufacturing center (that DID subsidize NYC 50 years ago), but when American manufacturing stopped existing the population evaporated while city/town/county budgets stayed what they always were and your tax rates skyrocketed. We lost manufacturing down here too, but have been able to create new jobs in different fields since NYC is such a diverse, internationally important city. Population in most Downstate counties has either stayed the same or grown slightly since the 1950s, while Upstate/WNY (especially major cities) plummeted. Buffalo alone has basically lost half of it's population since 1950!
When your tax base dries up, local government and the services it provides don't scale back in size...they just tax you more. The same applies to commercial properties. It might be true that NYC-centric legislation has scared some business away from Upstate/WNY, but I think a much bigger factor is having to pay an absurd amount of taxes for the cost of land. What company in it's right mind wants to pay more for crummy location and a workforce that sends all it's best skills Downstate or out-of-state? It all boils down to local problems (taxes) and national issues (loss of middle class) both places, but I don't see a "state" issue whatsoever.
If you lose Downstate you lose the SUNY Schools, you lose the prisons (two of your largest employers) and you lose a massive amount of state funding. NYC & Downstate would likely make out pretty well on the deal.
Personally, as a native Long Islander and former Capitol Region resident, I'd hate to see the state split in half. I'd vote against it in a heartbeat....whatever the financial savings are it won't be worth losing the natural beauty and natural resources of the North. I hope Upstate/WNY fixes itself, I really do...I would have loved to have seen Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, etc. in the middle of the 20th Century. Must have been a great place to live.....hopefully, if all the awful people in NYC and surrounding areas like myself keep sending a boatload of tax revenue up that way, one day some of those cities can turn things around. I have no idea how that would even begin to happen, though...
This.
Upstate NY becomes even more boring than it already is. Wonderful. And youre talking to an Upstater.
This is so false and again, highlights downstaters' ignorance of upstate, ny. The population of NYS outside of the Long Island/NYC metro is still about 6,000,000. You seem to think it's all cornfields and tractors up here; and that is completely inaccurate. There are 2 metropolitan areas with over 1 million people each, plus Syracuse with well over half a million; Utica-Rome, Binghamton, Elmira, and several other small cities with at least 100-200k in their metropolitan areas. NYS sans the NYC/LI region would actually be WAY more politically significant and would have a much stronger voice in national politics than the whole state does now. It would have a population about the same as Mass. and is very very "purple"; so basically it would rank right up there with Ohio as a "swing state". Meanwhile true-blue NYC region would pretty much be ignored (As all of NYS is now) because democrats know they have it and don't have to pay it any attention, and republicans know they'll never get it so why bother?
Claiming ignorance is stupid anyway but even as an Upstater, you cant blame people for worrying or caring about things that actually matter.
What matters? NYC does.
You advocate separating so you can get what YOU want and become ignorant yourself in your own little way in Upstate NY. Its a shame you dont see this.
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