Relocating to the Catskills area? (New York, Albany: hotels, affordable houses, construction jobs)

[lilibrarian]

Yet another LIer looking to flee. I'm all about NE, but my husband is drawn to the Catskills area. We took one disastrous trip to visit in Dec., but I'd like to give it another go. We loved the houses in Andes/Bovina/Delhi, but it may be a bit too rural. Of major concern, is jobs, of course. My husband's an electrician and colleagues who have homes in Sullivan Cty suggest that there is some money to be made for a hard worker. Of particular concern is the schools. In Nassau the schools (in general) are quite good, lots of offerings and services.

We like the small town picturesque feel, rather than new McMansion development. I'd like to have some mom and pop stores with Big Box/Walmart/Target within 45 min or so when the need arises. My husband's dream is to eventually open a martial arts/kickboxing school, so we can't be too remote. I liked the idea of Ulster County. It seems to be a blend of hippie/crunchy/artsy and more low-key traditional working class type areas. How does it compare to Sullivan or Greene County?

Would Dutchess or Columbia County be better? What would one recommend for a young family wanting a nice quiet area with some access to cultural attractions. Where are the jobs? I'm a librarian, certified for schools also, but I'd willing to do whatever if it meant a nicer way of life for us all. Are there any particular standout school districts, or areas to definitely stay away from? Should we be looking in a different direction? Thank you for any input. If this has already been discussed you can point me to another thread. Or if you know of any helpful websites. Also if anyone knows of a good, family friendly hotel/resort in the Catskills area from which we could make excursions, I'd love it. Thanks.

[Pidgett]

Hi LI librarian! I may be able to furnish you with some helpful info:

"We loved the houses in Andes/Bovina/Delhi, but it may be a bit too rural."

These villages are located in the most rural section of the Catskills, demographically speaking. Delhi has SUNY, which would presumably have some college-types, making it less provincial in outlook. Isolated, for sure, but also undiscovered by the second-home crowd, unpretentious and realtively inexpensive. Cute New Englandish architecture too!

"Of major concern, is jobs, of course. My husband's an electrician and colleagues who have homes in Sullivan Cty suggest that there is some money to be made for a hard worker."

Jobs are hard to come by. This is the biggest downside to upstate NY rural living. A concern that for working people is not a minor detail when making a move to "paradise." . However, in your case, your husband's profession is one in which he can find his own work, and like you say, make some money from his hard work ethic. Good electricians are always in demand. Hubby must be willing to travel much farther to get work than he does now on LI. The upside is that rural driving is hassle-free, compared with the LIE! Also, the public library system in NYS is well-developed--if not always well-funded---so you can certainly expect libraries to hire you.

"Of particular concern is the schools."

Rural schools have less money to spend on the extravagences that are enjoyed in well-off suburbia. That said, if you are willing to lower your expectations and re-adjust your suburban mindset to one of a modern, rural outlook, your children will excel academically. Although rural, most of upstate NY's schools are better than the large majority of rural schools elsewhere in the USA. Fortunately, NYS schools offer a base for high-quality education throughout the state. Unfortunately, there is an astonishingly variable outcome in the final product! Poor achievers do poorly for reasons other than a bad educational platform. Compared to most other states, New York State offers a fine education in its public schools!

"I liked the idea of Ulster County. It seems to be a blend of hippie/crunchy/artsy and more low-key traditional working class type areas. How does it compare to Sullivan or Greene County? Would Dutchess or Columbia County be better?"

The short answer is that there is no better or worse county. Each has there charms and idiosyncracies. Here's an outline:

Ulster:

(+'s) Look to Woodstock and Saugerties for hippie/crunchy/artsy. The western part of this county conatins a large chunk of the Catskill Forest Preserve. Beautiful waterfalls and deep forested mountains. Hiking opportunities. I-87 makes NYC and Albany access easy. Hudson River area has apple orchards, fruit farms and vineyards.

(-'s) Creeping suburbia at its southern end near Orange County. Haphazard zoning; watch out for unregulated junkyards and delapidated properties spoiling your view in a few spots.


Greene:

(+'s) Unspoiled countryside is predominate, especially to its west. Some incredibly scenic back roads that conjure up images from the Hudson River School of Art. Laid-back locals. Very good skiing. Ethnic restaurants.

(-'s) Serious lack of jobs. Some run-down spots, especially in the former resort-hotel areas. Many of the hotels/motels have not been upgraded from their 1950's/1960's styling!


Sullivan:

(+'s) Astonishingly, it is overlooked by the second-homeowners (for now, that is). This means that there are numerous opportunities to purchase country acreage at resonable prices. Understated rural scenery. The only Catskill county with numerous, small lakes dotting the green, hilly countryside, made popular when the Borscht Belt was in its prime. Closest county in the Catskills to NYC.

(-'s) Sullivan unfortunately suffers from the ravages of poor (or no) zoning practices. Some of the back roads are littered with abandoned and crumbling Borscht Belt summer camps and hotels, creating pockets of man-made eyesores that abruptly disrupt a bucolic view. There is a poverty issue in this county that somewhat resembles urban poverty. Many black and Hispanic hotel workers from the old Jewish resort days have become welfare recipients going into second and third generation of this lifestyle, as the these hotels are largey gone and there are no resort jobs any longer to re-employ them. Very sad.

Columbia:

(+"s) Although not a Catskill county technically, it contains spectacular views of the Cats at almost every turn. It is more accurately a part of the Taconic Hills which straddle the border of NYS and MA. Beautiful homes abound in this most serene of eastern NY counties. Also, this county is the most New Englandish of the aforementioned ones. Numerous small villages and hamlets are exquisitely nestled among green forested hills. Columbia abounds in 17th and 18th century architecture. A very progressive population in many respects. A good deal of dairy farms still left. Near all of the outstanding Berkshire cultural attractions are very close by. Easy access to the NYC metro area.

(-'s) Becoming very desirable by the second-homeowners, and, as a consequence, it is becoming outrageously expensive. Relatively highly populated. Very little public land for recreation and hiking because most of it is privately owned, in contrast with the Catskills. Many woodlots are being subdivided into building lots to ease the demand for second-homes and because the intense pressure for NYC metro people to find affordable houses has made Columbia County a part of their radar scope, thereby making the southern and easterly ends a de facto NYC exurb, despite it being 100 miles away from Manhattan--(one way!)

Dutchess is a mostly suburban county of Poughkeepsie and NYC so I won't bother to dicuss other than to say that Dutchess is the way Nassau County was like in the late 1940's and 1950's in terms of intense and rapid growth, farms and countryside disappearing to suburban tracts, and traffic and high property taxes.

There you have it. I do hope that I have been helpful to you in making your decision easier, or at least one that will be made from being better informed.

Best of luck and keep all of us posted on your progress!!

Pidgett

[lilibrarian]

Thanks very much Pidgett, for the excellent info. You confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. I'm going to focus on Ulster and look into Greene and Sullivan a bit, try to find decent areas. My husband currently works for Local #3, works all over the city, but mostly Midtown. His commute averages an hour and a half or so, so he'd much prefer driving through beautiful scenery rather than the LIRR subway.

Just a couple more questions:
--Would it be possible to live in say Delaware or Greene County and drive to where the construction/development/jobs might be more plentiful? Are we talking about more than an hour's drive time?

--I haven't seen any mentions of Ellenville/Napanoch. Down at the heels or on the upswing? Worth investigating?

As for the schools, that's what I was thinking. I'm assuming parental involvement/attitudes have a direct correlation on what a student gets out of his/her education. [Not all that different than LI actually, I think we're just better funded: more populous, plus high taxes]

Thanks again. Any further info would be super welcome. When my husband's on furlough (temp unemployment) we would like to do a vacation/research trip. Hopefully in September.

[JustSayNo]

Hey, great info but why nothing on Delaware Cty?

We are right where you drove through recently, and ex-LI'ers! A lot of LI'ers up here, much to my chagrin

I don't see why you couln't live here and drive for work. We are 20 mins. to Delhi, 20 mins to Margaretville, and 1 hour to Oneonta, 1 hour to Cobbleskill.

Certainly driving here is a breeze, and very pleasant compared to LI. There is also an ever growing second-home, or ft relocate in the area, and skilled contractors are needed. It is hard to find someone to do the work up here.

Please don't discount Delaware Cty.-depending on your needs, there is a lot to offer. AND I believe Delaware Academy, Delhi's school that 1/2 of Bovina is also districted, is a good school as far as I know.

Indeed come on back up and look around. YOu way want to go as far north as Catskill and then head west/ south west all the way to Delhi-you will get a good idea covering that much area.

[lilibrarian]

Thanks JustSayNo! How long have you been up there? Did you find people friendly? I guess we were just concerned that jobs wold be hard to come by. As I said, my husband would love to open a Karate school. Would there be a populous enough area to support it? Delhi?

[ss58yy]

Parts of eastern Delaware County (Fleischmanns, Arkville, Margaretville, etc.) are also only an hour from Kingston.

Besides Delaware County, don't overlook Southern Schoharie County (Jefferson, Summit, West Fulton, etc.). It's still in the Catskills up there, and you are close to Cobbleskill and also Schenectady and the rest of the Capital District (for construction jobs).

[kk423]

What is the land and log homes or otehr homes going for now im Gilboa, Stamford, Roxbury, Grand Gorge area? Schoharie, Deleware and Greene Counties?

[honeychrome]

Originally Posted by lilibrarian

I guess we were just concerned that jobs wold be hard to come by. As I said, my husband would love to open a Karate school. Would there be a populous enough area to support it? Delhi?

I'd have to say yes, expect decent jobs to be hard to come by in Delaware Co., which isn't to say that it is not a great place. Up in my corner $15/hr. is considered to be about as good as it gets. I kind of doubt that most towns would be able to support a Karate school, at least beyond a couple of classes a week- maybe something diversified to include yoga, etc. would see a bit more business, but I'd think you'd need to target an area with a lot of former downstaters or weekenders. The area sure could use some serious yoga, karate, anything (!!) to balance out all the ice cream- for such a beautiful and seemingly 'outdoorsy' kind of place, there are many, many visibly unhealthy people. Oneonta might have the kind and density of population to support a Karate school, what with the colleges and fairly 'progressive' element, though I'd be surprised if there isn't already something there.

[lilibrarian]

Thanks for the opinions. I will definitely look more into Oneonta and southern Schocharie (sp?) I've been reading positive things about Oneonta on these boards. I think we're going to focus on Ulster and Sullivan for some of the reasons honeychrome mentioned.

Anyone know anything about Roscoe /Livingston Manor? Completely dead in the off season? Decent proximity to a variety of areas? Decent schools? Scary people? Just kidding.

[Peachgirl]

Originally Posted by lilibrarian

Thanks for the opinions. I will definitely look more into Oneonta and southern Schocharie (sp?) I've been reading positive things about Oneonta on these boards. I think we're going to focus on Ulster and Sullivan for some of the reasons honeychrome mentioned.

Anyone know anything about Roscoe /Livingston Manor? Completely dead in the off season? Decent proximity to a variety of areas? Decent schools? Scary people? Just kidding.

You only THINK you're kidding! *grin*

I live in Liberty, lived in Woodstock/Saugerties for years, and am originally from Westchester. Although I adore the great mix of people and the availability of arts/outdoors/offbeat touristy junk near Woodstock, the area gets more like Westchester - in terms of congestion, cost of living and stripmalls - daily. Sullivan, on the other hand, is just beginning to see an economic turn-around as people realize it is the last reasonably-priced "commutable" (2 hours) county, so while you will have a 45-minute drive to do a day's shopping-mall-type shopping, and you must reconcile yourself to doing most 'regular' purchases at Wal*Mart or else driving to multiple little communities for mom-and-pop stores, if being a consumer is not way up on your list, that's not a big deal. Both my husband and I own our own businesses (he's a contractor and I'm a web designer) and neither of us have had a problem finding work. In fact, while housing prices plunged recently (as they did everywhere), construction is actually UP here, and Liberty's Main St. has seen numerous cute shops open in the past year or so - an antiques store, an artisan bakery, a coffeehouse, a new age shop, several cafes - as has Jeffersonville (adorable town!)

Roscoe & the Manor are both rural but nice - but they add 20 minutes to your "real shopping" commute, are prone to SERIOUS (as in, deadly) flooding (bad for HOI rates), and can be quite isolated in winter if it snows a lot. The Manor seems to be enjoying a resurgence spurred by attention from NYC's gay community, which has positioned the town as a sort of Vermont-esque "come buy a farm for cheap and retire early in the glorious, open-minded Catskills" place... which it is consequently (slowly) becoming. No bad thing, except that property prices are creeping up inexorably as people start to actually WANT to move here!

The schools are what you make of them - we are very involved and have had a great experience in Liberty - but the best are Sullivan West and TriValley, followed by Liberty. Avoid Monticello and Fallsburg like the plague! Also, please note that Rock Hill, which is closer to Orange Cty and has "expensive" (for here) neighborhoods like Emerald Green, is in the Monticello school system - which is becoming increasingly riddled by NYC gang recruiters!

Bottom line: it's a bit of culture shock here sometimes, but in the end, I don't think I'd move even if offered the chance. I've grown fond of knowing my local shopkeepers and never sitting in traffic