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The Dutch Reform thing isn't as bad as it was in the past (from what I understand).
There are a lot of top-notch school districts in the area where you are looking.
From what I've heard from my Catholic friends who've lived out in the Grand Rapids area, there's a pretty solid Catholic community in the area. By no means is it dominant like in the Northeast, but there's still a significant presence. And they didn't feel like they were left out of the larger community.
I can understand being worried about the job prospects. That's the main reason why we stay in the area we are in. Still, GR is the major job market for that area and it has grown a lot in the past 20 years. It's not a bad area to end up if you are okay with "winter" and lake effect snowstorms.
Greetings Water,
Although I had no family to think about like you do, the move I made 38 years ago from northwestern Pennsylvania to northern Michigan was the best thing I ever did. It was risky but everything worked out. Sometimes a person has to jump without having the future mapped out in detail.
I have two comments about your post:
If your job situation allows it, have you considered other areas of southern Michigan? Weather improves dramatically as you head east. I lived for eight years on Lake Michigan and found a huge improvement when I went to the Lake Huron side. Even going halfway will get you more sunshine and less snow.
If you mentioned it, I didn't catch what part of Indiana your wife is from. From everything I hear, Fort Wayne is a nice area that has not exploded as rapidly as SW Michigan but nonetheless is growing and prosperous. IF that puts your wife closer to home and you in a decent job market, it could work out for the entire family.
I see SW Michigan as getting crowded and trendy, which seems to be moving away from what you and your wife want. Grand Rapids, especially, has seen some steep real estate jumps in recent times, though it's still inexpensive compared to your present location. Fort Wayne, six months ago, was much more reasonable on housing. Outdoor recreation opportunities in NE Indiana can't compare to West Michigan but the area does have small lakes. I'd bet you could find excellent schools in NE Indiana, and there are plenty of small towns from which you could commute to FW. You'd get away from the in-law problem, weather is much friendlier than Lake Michigan's scud, and with its reputation as a city of churches, religion life in FW might be more in your flavor.
Last edited by LakeEffect2; 09-18-2018 at 08:25 PM..
Holland has changed a lot since I lived there. Not so super white and conservative. There is a lot more diversity, more restaurants and there is actually some culture. The lake (Michigan) is nearby but there isn't a lot of public access to it.
There are still lots of people of Dutch heritage but it isn't so in your face.
Holland has changed a lot since I lived there. Not so super white and conservative. There is a lot more diversity, more restaurants and there is actually some culture. The lake (Michigan) is nearby but there isn't a lot of public access to it.
There are still lots of people of Dutch heritage but it isn't so in your face.
Heard that and that's why we like it. Lakefront, a college, some industry, and a functioning downtown with retail that goes beyond tourist knick-knacks.
We're just not confident about the schools (where we may/may not get into) and that's the deal-breaker at this point. That's what it's come down to for us.
We moved from Orange County Ca in part for the same reasons. There is never enough money no matter where you are, but some things are better, some not as good.
We live in a huge 1836 house on the water (6 Br. 4 ba). Our house would have cost around $8 million in OC. Here it is about $500,000.
We live in the safest community in Michigan with some of the best schools. In California we could not afford the super safe communities with good schools, and by the time we could, we did not want to live in them (tiny yards, boring soulless communities that are an endless sea of conformity etc). So private schools and charter schools were he way to go. When we realize we would have three kids in private school at once and two in not free charter school, we realized we had to move. We looked at moving to the towns with good public schools in Orange County, but intensely disliked all of them, plus we would have had to downsize in a big way.
In California our kids could play: 1. In a huge paved parking lot a block away that was empty on weekends; 2. In a park if we drove them there and stayed with them and if they had an appointment to meet friends there; 3. At a friend's house with an appointment and usually if we drove them there. If our older kids went for a walk anywhere, even in our neighborhood, we made them bring two way radios and our giant mastiffs, and told them not to talk to anyone. In Michigan by contrast they roamed at will with the only rules being "Do not leave the island without permission from us" and "Be back by dark or call and let us know where you will be" They played in forests, fields, streams, rivers, and lakes. If they got hungry or thirsty, they went into a nearby house and found something to eat or drink. Anywhere within ten miles there was always a family they knew nearby and if they were not home, it was no problem to just go in and grab a snack or a glass of water (no one locks their doors), at least with most families they knew. The moral atmosphere in the schools was 100% better (Still have issues, but a tiny fraction of the level of issues in California). Many of the smaller communities all over Michigan are simlar. Very safe, very open, people look out for each other and especially for each others kids. If your kids misbehave anywhere and in any way, you will hear about it immediately and often (kids tend to hate this).
The overall lifestyle is more laid back. Less over-scheduled, less hypercompetitive, less rush rush rush rush and always being late. We may not do as much as we did (hard to say) but it is all more relaxed. Not perfect in this way, but much better.
Colleges. We have three research universities, five great regional colleges, a ton of highly regarded and well ranked smaller and private colleges. For a state of something like 8 million people there are an outrageous number of college opportunities. And if you miss New Yorkers, they provide a substantial part of the student body at University of Michigan (where they pay something like $30 or $50 k for out of state tuition compared to your 18K (numbers are ballpark, I do not recall actual numbers). U-M by the way is the 4th ranked public school in the country.
Natural beauty. You have it too in upstate New York. For us it is closer in time and more exclusive (and arguably more beautiful, but that is subjective). The west side of the State is amazing and has some of the prettiest beaches in the country.
Water. You are always within a mile or so of a significant lake, river stream or pond.
You can visit Grand Rpids, Detroit and Ann Arbor (also Chicago) all awesome cities and great places for a weekend getaway.
There is comparatively little traffic, especially if you live in the less popular areas.
Michigan is one of the safest places in the world as far as disasters. We do not normally have earthquakes, hurricanes, wildfires, significant flooding, mudslides, sinkholes. We have very rare tornadoes. We are not an appealing target for terrorism. We have had some very small earthquakes rarely, a bit of flooding, but limited in scope and severity, windy days, but nothing really devastating. Compared to most places the threat level is extremely low. Our biggest threat is the possibility of a Canadian invasion. If that does happen, they will be very polite and apologetic while invading.
When you say you are from Mchigan, people assume Detroit, and immediately think you are a badass and strive desperately to not offend you. It can be nice.
Cars. Every kind from every maker of every year. You will find them here like no other place.
The downsides:
Sunshine? What is that?
Truly nice restaurants are here, but they are fewer and far between. Instead of 250 great options within 5 miles, we have more like 15 - 20 great options within 45 miles.
Economy is not as strong.
People do not move around all the time. A lot of people grew up together and stayed put. They have known each other for 20 - 50 years and are not really looking for new friends. They are friendly enough and will drop everything to help you out in a pinch, but there is a difference between friendly and friends. It can take years to get "in" to social circles around here and you mostly get accepted by demonstrating that you are dedicated and a hard worker as well as a niceand trustworthy person.
It is very segregated everyone has their place. Whites go here, blacks there, Hispanics in Mexicantown, Indians (from India) in Canton, Jewish people in Bloomfield or Birmingham, Middle easterners in Dearborn, Polish people over there, etc. On the West side of the State (which is extremely beautiful, especially the beaches), they have a saying "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much." It is getting better all over and is far less extreme than 40 years ago, but it remains very segregated.
Roads are in terrible condition in the populated parts of the State.
People drive aggressively (even by new York standards).
All of our kids are moving away upon graduation from college so far. Of 5, one may stay here and one is iffy (just a freshman).
Winters are tough. Not the cold and snow, but the endless dark/overcast days. It also seems to last forever. You are probably use to similar in New York,but not as bad as here.
No mass transit to speak of. You are going to drive.
Not trying to derail the thread, but quick question- Do you have any regrets about leaving California? Do you miss it at all? We’re from OC, and I absolutely hate everything about it. My husband hates it too, but hates change even more. He says once we leave, we can never come back. I say that’s the point. Our kids want to go, his whole family is there, all signs point to this being a good move, we can’t afford to stay here, but for some reason he just won’t budge.
We moved from Orange County Ca in part for the same reasons. There is never enough money no matter where you are, but some things are better, some not as good.
We live in a huge 1836 house on the water (6 Br. 4 ba). Our house would have cost around $8 million in OC. Here it is about $500,000.
We live in the safest community in Michigan with some of the best schools. In California we could not afford the super safe communities with good schools, and by the time we could, we did not want to live in them (tiny yards, boring soulless communities that are an endless sea of conformity etc). So private schools and charter schools were he way to go. When we realize we would have three kids in private school at once and two in not free charter school, we realized we had to move. We looked at moving to the towns with good public schools in Orange County, but intensely disliked all of them, plus we would have had to downsize in a big way.
In California our kids could play: 1. In a huge paved parking lot a block away that was empty on weekends; 2. In a park if we drove them there and stayed with them and if they had an appointment to meet friends there; 3. At a friend's house with an appointment and usually if we drove them there. If our older kids went for a walk anywhere, even in our neighborhood, we made them bring two way radios and our giant mastiffs, and told them not to talk to anyone. In Michigan by contrast they roamed at will with the only rules being "Do not leave the island without permission from us" and "Be back by dark or call and let us know where you will be" They played in forests, fields, streams, rivers, and lakes. If they got hungry or thirsty, they went into a nearby house and found something to eat or drink. Anywhere within ten miles there was always a family they knew nearby and if they were not home, it was no problem to just go in and grab a snack or a glass of water (no one locks their doors), at least with most families they knew. The moral atmosphere in the schools was 100% better (Still have issues, but a tiny fraction of the level of issues in California). Many of the smaller communities all over Michigan are simlar. Very safe, very open, people look out for each other and especially for each others kids. If your kids misbehave anywhere and in any way, you will hear about it immediately and often (kids tend to hate this).
The overall lifestyle is more laid back. Less over-scheduled, less hypercompetitive, less rush rush rush rush and always being late. We may not do as much as we did (hard to say) but it is all more relaxed. Not perfect in this way, but much better.
Colleges. We have three research universities, five great regional colleges, a ton of highly regarded and well ranked smaller and private colleges. For a state of something like 8 million people there are an outrageous number of college opportunities. And if you miss New Yorkers, they provide a substantial part of the student body at University of Michigan (where they pay something like $30 or $50 k for out of state tuition compared to your 18K (numbers are ballpark, I do not recall actual numbers). U-M by the way is the 4th ranked public school in the country.
Natural beauty. You have it too in upstate New York. For us it is closer in time and more exclusive (and arguably more beautiful, but that is subjective). The west side of the State is amazing and has some of the prettiest beaches in the country.
Water. You are always within a mile or so of a significant lake, river stream or pond.
You can visit Grand Rpids, Detroit and Ann Arbor (also Chicago) all awesome cities and great places for a weekend getaway.
There is comparatively little traffic, especially if you live in the less popular areas.
Michigan is one of the safest places in the world as far as disasters. We do not normally have earthquakes, hurricanes, wildfires, significant flooding, mudslides, sinkholes. We have very rare tornadoes. We are not an appealing target for terrorism. We have had some very small earthquakes rarely, a bit of flooding, but limited in scope and severity, windy days, but nothing really devastating. Compared to most places the threat level is extremely low. Our biggest threat is the possibility of a Canadian invasion. If that does happen, they will be very polite and apologetic while invading.
When you say you are from Mchigan, people assume Detroit, and immediately think you are a badass and strive desperately to not offend you. It can be nice.
Cars. Every kind from every maker of every year. You will find them here like no other place.
The downsides:
Sunshine? What is that?
Truly nice restaurants are here, but they are fewer and far between. Instead of 250 great options within 5 miles, we have more like 15 - 20 great options within 45 miles.
Economy is not as strong.
People do not move around all the time. A lot of people grew up together and stayed put. They have known each other for 20 - 50 years and are not really looking for new friends. They are friendly enough and will drop everything to help you out in a pinch, but there is a difference between friendly and friends. It can take years to get "in" to social circles around here and you mostly get accepted by demonstrating that you are dedicated and a hard worker as well as a niceand trustworthy person.
It is very segregated everyone has their place. Whites go here, blacks there, Hispanics in Mexicantown, Indians (from India) in Canton, Jewish people in Bloomfield or Birmingham, Middle easterners in Dearborn, Polish people over there, etc. On the West side of the State (which is extremely beautiful, especially the beaches), they have a saying "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much." It is getting better all over and is far less extreme than 40 years ago, but it remains very segregated.
Roads are in terrible condition in the populated parts of the State.
People drive aggressively (even by new York standards).
All of our kids are moving away upon graduation from college so far. Of 5, one may stay here and one is iffy (just a freshman).
Winters are tough. Not the cold and snow, but the endless dark/overcast days. It also seems to last forever. You are probably use to similar in New York,but not as bad as here.
No mass transit to speak of. You are going to drive.
You summed up many of the pros/cons for me. I generally know them as I grew up in West MI, but haven't lived there for over 20 years.
Financially it pretty much makes sense for us. My wife could be home to spend more time with the kids and on her writing and (I think) our lives would be less frenetic, more outdoors-y, more affordable and closer to relatives (double edged sword there). But then we uproot the kids from the only life they've known and unravel everything we've done here, which while hard and very expensive, is a pretty good life.
I make 14x more than my dad did at the same age, but you can never earn enough money here. It feels like a financial time bomb ticking louder every day, every hour.
Update: we decided not to do it this time. The wife's general unhappiness with the location was the biggest factor, while my unfamiliarity/uncertainty about schools was the next biggest factor.
Thanks for the advice to those who replied. I'll probably be back in here asking again in a few months!
Update: we decided not to do it this time. The wife's general unhappiness with the location was the biggest factor, while my unfamiliarity/uncertainty about schools was the next biggest factor.
Thanks for the advice to those who replied. I'll probably be back in here asking again in a few months!
Probably a good choice, happy wife equals happy life. That being said, and this is just my opinion. I'd hands down take MI over NYC any day. You couldn't pay me to live there, rural NY sure just not the city. Then again, I'm originally from KS so anything is better than that.
I've been in the metro Detroit area all my life, mainly due to career options, but if I had a choice I'd love to live in Holland, Grand Haven etc. Even better would be further north, Ludington , Frankfort etc. My dream would be to live on Lake Charlevoix. It's a shame you past on the situation but you have to do what is right for you.
Good for you for communicating and considering her feelings. Being unhappy where you live is a terrible feeling I wouldn’t wish on anyone. It sounds like you aren’t miserable In NY, you just would like it better in Michigan. Maybe re visit it in a few months. Hubby’s and my 7 year where to live fight has taken a serious toll on our marriage, and it sucks, so I think being in a position to compromise is great.
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