Inner-City Grand Rapids (Detroit, Novi, Kentwood: to rent, crime rates, loans)
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OK, this is why this thread made me so irritated. And after I post these, people can pelt me with snowballs for being a jerk.
What Indentured Servant neglected to show everyone is that his pictures did not show the true picture of those areas. In fact, I think he purposely didn't turn around in many of them to show the revitalization going on.
Starting with the one of the liquor store and "Welcome to the hood!", this new development is RIGHT across the street:
You can even see the liquor store in this angle:
These two rehab projects are right across Division from that:
The new Kent County Department of HHS is right down the street on Franklin. You can even see a corner of it in one of IS's pictures:
A new retirement village around the corner:
Yes, a boarded up house in the vicinity:
The new Middle School less than a block away:
A bunch of this infill is going in (low income housing mainly):
Madison and Hall, a couple of blocks South:
Stayed in the car because it was getting damn cold.
Near Division and Hall:
Then, the collection of boarded up retail buildings and crack houses? This is what is on the opposite corners from there. FYI, all of those boarded up houses are being readied for demolition for a large mixed-use "village" project. Not sure when it's starting though (stalled a bit due to the ecomomy).
I even got the broken concrete in the vacant lot to show you I wasn't joking:
Just a stone's throw away to the North.
And that ladies and gentleman is what is going on in the most crime- and poverty-ridden area of Grand Rapids. There's still a ton wrong with it (lack of integration for one), but at least they're trying.
I get offended because I actually know the people who are behind many of these rehab and infill projects.
It probably is perspective. I'd love to see areas of Detroit going through the same level of revitalization.
Fine. And I never labeled black areas as sh**holes. In fact, there are some areas of NW Grand Rapids that are predominantly white that look worse than the photos you posted. There are also areas of Kentwood, which is predominantly white, that I'd be afraid to step foot in at night. Poverty = how a neighborhood looks, not color, in my opinion. Fewer owner-occupieds means fewer homeowners who take care of their homes and each other.
No....people today are not as forthcoming as they used to be in the past. I hardly expect to hear someone say that black areas are sh..holes. People today don't want to get labeled by being explicit like that. However, I have read comment after comment on forums in Michigan that condemn the majority black cities in the state. Detroit, Flint, Benton Harbor, the Heights, Saginaw (near majority black). Intelligence is oft measured by the ability to recognize patterns. Well.....I don't think that it takes much intelligence to see the pattern of the most denigrated cities in Michigan just happening to be the majority black cities...whether people say it or not.
There are always exeptions to the rule by the way. No one is assuming absolutes and hence pointing out reasoning or realites that goes against the grain of general rules is meaningless.
No....people today are not as forthcoming as they used to be in the past. I hardly expect to hear someone say that black areas are sh..holes. People today don't want to get labeled by being explicit like that. However, I have read comment after comment on forums in Michigan that condemn the majority black cities in the state. Detroit, Flint, Benton Harbor, the Heights, Saginaw (near majority black). Intelligence is oft measured by the ability to recognize patterns. Well.....I don't think that it takes much intelligence to see the pattern of the most denigrated cities in Michigan just happening to be the majority black cities...whether people say it or not.
There are always exeptions to the rule by the way. No one is assuming absolutes and hence pointing out reasoning or realites that goes against the grain of general rules is meaningless.
I think you should debate with people on things they actually "say" and "do," not on what you think they'll say and do.
There is an unmistakeable pattern though: there are far more African American males in prison than at any other time, and way more than whites. This means there are far fewer of them in the community being dads and husbands. Meaning that there are a lot more single-parent households (mothers). Which means that poverty levels in those predominantly black areas is higher. Meaning that they tend to start to look like sh**holes.
Why the first part? I don't know. Cycle of hopelessness? Who knows.
So I don't think people are singling out those cities because they are predominantly black (some I'm sure are). But I've been to many parts of Saginaw and Detroit, far off the beaten path. It's sad and frustrating seeing how far they have fallen, and most of the rest of us don't hear about anyone trying to fix any of it.
I'd love to see areas of Detroit going through the same level of revitalization.
There IS revitalization going on in Detroit, btw.
Go on Streetview. Look at Downtown, Joseph Berry Subdivision, Corktown, and the Marina District.
I was driving around just the other day, and I saw 3 homes being restored in Joseph Berry, all within a block of each other. Big companies like Compuware are moving Downtown, which is experiencing a renaissance of sorts, with vacant buildings being restored, like the Book-Cadillac Hotel/Condos.
Formerly abandoned factories on the riverfront are being turned into upscale lofts. A huge swath of land off Chene Street was turned into a condominiums.
Corktown is a gentrifying neighborhood, with a 'yuppie' presence that's growing as I type. They're attracted there because of the ethnic diversity, eclectic restaurants, and proximity to downtown.
In the Marina District, where I live, the entire neighborhood makes you feel like you're in the suburbs. They're large, well-maintained homes with big, green front lawns, swimming pools and patios, and minivans in the driveways. There's a huge community involvement here, too.
Now, if that's not urban renewal, I don't know what is.
OK, this is why this thread made me so irritated. And after I post these, people can pelt me with snowballs for being a jerk.
What Indentured Servant neglected to show everyone is that his pictures did not show the true picture of those areas. In fact, I think he purposely didn't turn around in many of them to show the revitalization going on.
Starting with the one of the liquor store and "Welcome to the hood!", this new development is RIGHT across the street:
You can even see the liquor store in this angle:
These two rehab projects are right across Division from that:
The new Kent County Department of HHS is right down the street on Franklin. You can even see a corner of it in one of IS's pictures:
A new retirement village around the corner:
Yes, a boarded up house in the vicinity:
The new Middle School less than a block away:
A bunch of this infill is going in (low income housing mainly):
Madison and Hall, a couple of blocks South:
Stayed in the car because it was getting damn cold.
Near Division and Hall:
Then, the collection of boarded up retail buildings and crack houses? This is what is on the opposite corners from there. FYI, all of those boarded up houses are being readied for demolition for a large mixed-use "village" project. Not sure when it's starting though (stalled a bit due to the ecomomy).
I even got the broken concrete in the vacant lot to show you I wasn't joking:
Just a stone's throw away to the North.
And that ladies and gentleman is what is going on in the most crime- and poverty-ridden area of Grand Rapids. There's still a ton wrong with it (lack of integration for one), but at least they're trying.
I get offended because I actually know the people who are behind many of these rehab and infill projects.
It probably is perspective. I'd love to see areas of Detroit going through the same level of revitalization.
The problem is that you are PROJECTING. You are accusing me of being guilty of treating Grand Rapids......AS YOU VIEW AND TREAT DETROIT. If you are not aware of all the Investment and Rehab in Detroit over the last 10 years.....then you are not qualified to condemn it as you do.....based upon the fact that you say the existence of Rehab in Grand Rapids overrides or excuses the not so good that exists. Mike Illitich has invested Millions, if not Billions in Detroit. There is currently major companies, Like Quicken Loans, that are moving headquarters from Suburban Detroit down into the City. THe Brush Park Area is slowly being Rehabed....the old Cass Corridor (now Midtown) is being gentrified and rehabed. The New Tiger Stadium....the new Lions Stadium, MGM Grand, Greek Town, and Moter City Casinons and Hotels......Wayne State Univerisy Investment. Plenty of communities are having new housing and lofts created in Detroit also. If you took all the investments in commercial and residential areas in Detroit and plop them down in Grand Rapids it would stand out greatly. However, In a city of 135 square miles in which half its former residents have left.....its not appreciated by people like you. You are a Grand Rapids BOOSTER and a Detroit DENIGRATOR. That is what is clear to me.
That rehab in Grand Rapids does not change the rate of poverty or unemployment or crime that exists in those areas. In fact, what is going on in Grand Rapids is simply gentrification. Eventually the inner-city will property vallues will rise from the return of the gentry and the poor will be pushed out into rental communities in the suburbs.....like Kentwood. Thats the master plan manifesting in most cities in America today. American cities are going to go the way of Europe in which the middle class live in the central cities and the poor live in the suburbs. Suburban and exurban living is just not feasable any longer in a world in which fuel prices will continue to rise and nations seek ways to reduces consumption via high density living and mass transit. That means inner or central city living and that means the the current occupants of those areas will eventually be displaced as rents and mortages get to high.....like what happened in Heritage Hills, Eastown and other Gentrified areas of Grand Rapids.
I am not going to get into a picture pizzing contest with you.....but I can google a whole lot of rehab and investment in Detroit. However, more importantly......YOU COULD DO....if you WANTED to see that side of Detroit.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 12-06-2010 at 02:07 PM..
The problem is that you are PROJECTING. You are accusing me of being guilty of treating Grand Rapids......AS YOU VIEW AND TREAT DETROIT. If you are not aware of all the Investment and Rehab in Detroit over the last 10 years.....then you are not qualified to condemn it as you do.....based upon the fact that you say the existence of Rehab in Grand Rapids overrides or excuses the not so good that exists. Mike Illitich has invested Millions, if not Billions in Detroit. There is currently major companies, Like Quicken Loans, that are moving headquarters from Suburban Detroit down into the City. THe Brush Park Area is slowly being Rehabed....the old Cass Corridor (now Midtown) is being gentrified and rehabed. The New Tiger Stadium....the new Lions Stadium, MGM Grand, Greek Town, and Moter City Casinons and Hotels......Wayne State Univerisy Investment. Plenty of communities are having new housing and lofts created in Detroit also. If you took all the investments in commercial and residential areas in Detroit and plop them down in Grand Rapids it would stand out greatly. However, In a city of 135 square miles in which half its former residents have left.....its not appreciated.
I know all about that stuff. I've seen the casinos and stadiums personally and think, meh, it's a start. It at least gets suburbanites downtown for a couple hours before they turn around and head back to Novi. That's where Grand Rapids was about 15 - 18 years ago, with a lot of concentration on downtown cultural venues. Next came the housing, and then it spread to the near downtown neighborhoods.
I've been to Corktown, which a lot of people had told me about. Is there anything new there other than Slow's? And a big vacant lot where Tiger Stadium was? Maybe I missed it all, as it was dark outside.
And I didn't say the good going on in GR overrides the bad.
Yeah, completely disregard all the examples I listed - because there's no photos.
Shouldn't moderators be here to KEEP the peace?
No, I went through the moderator handbook and didn't see anything. I begrudgingly became a moderator in the Michigan section because the owners of the site got sick of dealing with all the trolls and trash, and no one else would do it. so they asked me. They get me the way I am.
And challenging people in their beliefs is what discussion boards are all about.
I think you should debate with people on things they actually "say" and "do," not on what you think they'll say and do.
There is an unmistakeable pattern though: there are far more African American males in prison than at any other time, and way more than whites. This means there are far fewer of them in the community being dads and husbands. Meaning that there are a lot more single-parent households (mothers). Which means that poverty levels in those predominantly black areas is higher. Meaning that they tend to start to look like sh**holes.
Why the first part? I don't know. Cycle of hopelessness? Who knows.
So I don't think people are singling out those cities because they are predominantly black (some I'm sure are). But I've been to many parts of Saginaw and Detroit, far off the beaten path. It's sad and frustrating seeing how far they have fallen, and most of the rest of us don't hear about anyone trying to fix any of it.
Every condition there is EVOLVED into what it is. There is no MYSTERY why things are the way they are. Black behavior is a REACTION....like all other behavior, to actions which triggered it over time. There is 300 years of documented actions and all actions manifest reaction. People just refuse to follow the dots of history because it reveals causations that America is still not maure enough to deal with. Its only a MYSTERY if one refuses to see the truth. Just in case you don't know..... poverty has always been much worse in this nation for blacks percentage wise. That was long, long before black males started going to prison. Hence, if black poverty existed at high levels before black incarceration did.....its hardly plausible that black poverty is rooted in black male imprisonment. Black male rate of imprisonment is due to the war on drugs being waged largly in the black community, while the majority of users of illegal drugs are white. Do the research yourself.
The bottom line is that as an African American.......I take it personal when I see the pattern of condemnation being directed at majority black cities. When people condemn areas of Grand Rapids.....its most often SE....the areas with the highest concentrations of blacks.
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