It's official: Maryland is a NORTHEASTERN state! (Crofton, Crownsville: move, place)

[U146]

Originally Posted by ialmostforgot

That's what other people call it. The middle Atlantic does NOT constitute only places that nobody wants to call northern or southern; there is no solid definition.

The Mid-Atlantic consists of places most people wouldn't identify as Southern though....Virginia is an outlier in the Mid-Atlantic as its Southern while of the rest of the states in it are not. And Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York are almost always included in the Mid-Atlantic definition.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by U146

I don't care what you think. You don't have to be a resident of the state to be able to come up with as informed of an opinion as someone who lives there. There seems to be this thing on city-data.com that out of staters aren't qualified to speak on other states even if they've been there numerous times. As if they're stupid and have no brains. It's possible for someone who lives in a state to know less about it than an out of stater. Dismissing linguistic studies and saying your personal experience trumps them is arrogant and ridiculous as well. Personal experience doesn't always trump professional studies and it usually never does.

The issue here is that you're big on authoritatively declaring how certain places are culturally by relying on nothing more than static maps that only show one aspect of culture. When you have practically no firsthand experience to go by, then that calls your credibility into question and with good reason. Personal experience is what allows you to appropriately contextualize studies and put them into proper perspective, since they often don't account for intracultural variation, cultural oddities, etc.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

The issue here is that you're big on authoritatively declaring how certain places are culturally by relying on nothing more than static maps that only show one aspect of culture. When you have practically no firsthand experience to go by, then that calls your credibility into question and with good reason. Personal experience is what allows you to appropriately contextualize studies and put them into proper perspective, since they often don't account for intracultural variation, cultural oddities, etc.

Not to mention many studies in linguistics especially, but cultural studies in general, use broad survey methods and miss many isolated unique areas. For instance most linguistic studies are based on broadly drawing isoglosses around places that have been surveyed, mostly larger urban areas.

I can't say I have ever seen a data point on a regional or national linguistic study for Cumberland, or anywhere in Western Maryland for that matter (and no Aschmann's interesting but largely self researched map doesn't count. But if you want it to, U146, it puts Western Maryland firmly in the Southern speech zone!)

So, no, you don't have to be from a place to give a lay opinion. But, yes, if you want to speak with the tone and fervor of an expert telling us "the truth" about our home state, you probably need more bonafides than having visiting "enough" and looking at studies.

[U146]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

The issue here is that you're big on authoritatively declaring how certain places are culturally by relying on nothing more than static maps that only show one aspect of culture. When you have practically no firsthand experience to go by, then that calls your credibility into question and with good reason. Personal experience is what allows you to appropriately contextualize studies and put them into proper perspective, since they often don't account for intracultural variation, cultural oddities, etc.

I've been to Maryland numerous times. I wouldn't call that practically no first-hand experience.

[U146]

Originally Posted by westsideboy

Not to mention many studies in linguistics especially, but cultural studies in general, use broad survey methods and miss many isolated unique areas. For instance most linguistic studies are based on broadly drawing isoglosses around places that have been surveyed, mostly larger urban areas.

I can't say I have ever seen a data point on a regional or national linguistic study for Cumberland, or anywhere in Western Maryland for that matter (and no Aschmann's interesting but largely self researched map doesn't count. But if you want it to, U146, it puts Western Maryland firmly in the Southern speech zone!)

So, no, you don't have to be from a place to give a lay opinion. But, yes, if you want to speak with the tone and fervor of an expert telling us "the truth" about our home state, you probably need more bonafides than having visiting "enough" and looking at studies.

I'm using the University of Pennsylvania, which is considered the ultimate dialect study. It is the most detailed and comprehensive. It places all of Western Maryland firmly north of the dialect line. Aschmann is incorrect about West Virginia as well. The Eastern panhandle is not culturally or linguistically southern. Same for Northern WV including the panhandle. I've been to both areas. And I've been to Cumberland and Baltimore. And Hagertown and Frederick. So I have enough experience. You don't have to be a state resident to have a "qualified" opinion.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by U146

I've been to Maryland numerous times. I wouldn't call that practically no first-hand experience.

Sure but I doubt you've been all over the state to the point where you can authoritatively declare that there's absolutely nothing Southern about the state outside of the Eastern Shore. And you do this in other threads for places you've never been. It's just odd that you devote so much of your time to this, and only in regards to what places are deemed Southern.

[U146]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

Sure but I doubt you've been all over the state to the point where you can authoritatively declare that there's absolutely nothing Southern about the state outside of the Eastern Shore. And you do this in other threads for places you've never been. It's just odd that you devote so much of your time to this, and only in regards to what places are deemed Southern.

So you're following me around, are you? And how do you know where I have and have not been? I suggest you think carefully before trying to draw conclusions about me that are based solely on your opinion.

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by U146

So you're following me around, are you? And how do you know where I have and have not been? I suggest you think carefully before trying to draw conclusions about me that are based solely on your opinion.

I'm not following you around, but as a native Southerner that has lived in a couple of states at this point, topics about the "Southernness" of places is naturally of interest to me. So I often encounter your posts in those topics and it's quite clear that you haven't had extensive experience with all these places to speak so authoritatively in detail about them. In the south TX vs south FL thread, you have so much to say in that thread when I doubt you've even set foot in south TX (and no, that's not Houston).

[U146]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I'm not following you around, but as a native Southerner that has lived in a couple of states at this point, topics about the "Southernness" of places is naturally of interest to me. So I often encounter your posts in those topics and it's quite clear that you haven't had extensive experience with all these places to speak so authoritatively in detail about them. In the south TX vs south FL thread, you have so much to say in that thread when I doubt you've even set foot in south TX (and no, that's not Houston).

How is it quite clear? Because I've been to all these places. Are you discounting me as a moron? I think before you say it's quite clear I have no experience stop and think about whether or not we just disagree. I'm not stupid.

[westsideboy]

Originally Posted by U146

I'm using the University of Pennsylvania, which is considered the ultimate dialect study. It is the most detailed and comprehensive. It places all of Western Maryland firmly north of the dialect line. Aschmann is incorrect about West Virginia as well. The Eastern panhandle is not culturally or linguistically southern. Same for Northern WV including the panhandle. I've been to both areas. And I've been to Cumberland and Baltimore. And Hagertown and Frederick. So I have enough experience. You don't have to be a state resident to have a "qualified" opinion.

Dr. Labov is great. But I have yet to see him use a data point between Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Western Maryland is placed in the Midland region based on estimated isogloss boundaries, not the results of actual surveys or sound samples from our area. If I am wrong on this, PLEASE let me see. I would kill for UPenn quality research that includes information from Western Maryland.

As for "north of the dialect line" I can only assume you mean Midland/Southern. I agree with that FWIW. Our speech is transitional, but is best categorized as twangy Midland, not Southern. No part of Maryland is near the Northern dialect region of the US though. There is part of the rub, what is "the northeast" in your mind? If it is PA, I would agree that Western Maryland is more like PA than say, VA or NC. That said, I don't consider PA a northeast state. The state is hearthland for the Midland dialect and two of the four great regional cultures of the US. Read Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer for information on that topic.

I've glad you've actually been to Cumberland. I'm here everyday. That's the rest of the rub. I've been to lots of places a few times, yet I would never had the audacity to tell locals there they didn't know their own communities as well as me, because, you know, I've been there a couple of times or so.

Understand I don't really disagree with all of your assessments. You recognize our state as divided, which is the majority opinion. I think your usage of the term "northeast" is the sticking point with people (well at least me.) Not all of Maryland is especially Southern. Much of it is best described as "Greater PA" in dialect, settlement patterns, folk ways, etc. "Northeast" brings to mind places like New York and New England. I don't believe any parts of rural MD are more like those places than our neighbors immediately to our south, even parts of Maryland along the Mason-Dixon.