treegrowth plan (good/bad) (to buy, income, organic)

[wnc-eky-me]

"second reason was the trees would shatter if fell onto the bare ground. During the winter, the sap was down, and the snow cushioned the falling tree. I'm talking about trees that were 3 to 4 ft on the stump, and they would shatter the top where it was over a foot in diameter when they fell even into several feet of snow. I can't say I've ever seen a huge pine fall onto bare ground, but I imagine it would destroy quite a bit of valuable lumber. Again, maybe a pine a foot on the stump wouldn't be so bad, but the big bad boys of the past would have splintered a lot of wood."

I am not sure I would agree with this statement either. I have seen some rather large Pine trees cut down (2ft +) and have never seen them shatter, otherwise we could never cut a lot of our trees ( NC 40% pine at least) in the south except in Jan. and Feb. and even then there would be no snow to cushion the fall. And you must remember that when the American Chestnut was still around the people of the Appalachian Mtns use to cut trees 6ft+ in diameter in the summer without a problem. But maybe I am wrong about the New England area.?

But it is true of yellow pines and I am pretty sure of white pines that if you wait until winter to cut them down and if they are the prodominant species being cut in the area then by late winter the forest floor is littered with fresh Pine seeds that if they can germinate will more than likely produce a mostly pine stand back. Assuming the site is cut clean without any standing timber left. So there are ways to manipulate the stand regeneration if the markets allow for it. Especially since pines hate shade and are very fast growers at the small sizes they can quickly outgrow most trees on dry sites to shade them out. But this is all from experience from the south full of clay soil so maybe it is different in the good soil of the colder climate.


So IF I am wrong you guys can teach me the way things are done in ME.
SHaun

[Northern Maine Land Man]

I love this thread. I'm sitting here laughing out loud at forest beekeeper's precisely accurate description of of the Unity College ethos:

"At those workshops I have seen fellow woodlot owners whose intent was 'profit', their concerns and questions have consistently been swept aside; in favour of the natural 'feng shui' of the forest.

Profit seeking woodlot owners are advised to seek out private Foresters who are willing to be contracted under those terms, but those ideas will not be tolerated at the workshops."

"Feng shui of the forest". That's definitely a keeper.

Then wnc-eky-me emerges to be an actual good guy with "C.A.V.E people or Citizens Against Virtually Everything". That's a keeper too.

It's a good snowy morning in Maine.

[wnc-eky-me]

And most logging sites I have seen, what is left standing wasn't worth the loggers time to get then you probably don't want that reseeding your land. Also if you don't want Pines then cut them down in summer before the fall and you will severly limit your viable seed amount in the soil since their seeds fall in Autumn. But if youwant Pine then cut in winter. It is a relavent!
S

"hmm"


Hey Forest I realize what I wrote didn't come out the way I wanted it to. I just believe that if markets are right and if alot of other factors are taken into account then you can manipulate what nature puts back out there. Now there are probably more circumstances where you can't manipulate it but there are times when you can. I guess that was what I was saying.

For Example,

Lets say you has a 40 acre tract of mostly mature Pine and the market is good to harvest. And lets say this tract is surrounded by a large river on one side and fields on one side and a hardwood mix stand on another side and lastly a stand of old field pure pine 20+ yrs old on the other(probably seeded from your stand you just cut). If we were to cut in the summer and we want to manage for hardwoods to come back and if the prevailing winds are coming from behind the pure field pines neighbooring you fresh clearcut, then no it probably isn't going to happen because of the seed blowing in from the field pine or at least not any time soon (call in the crop duster to kill pines). But if the prevailing winds blow the pine seed away and blow the hardwood seeds (excluding nut producing tree since wind rarely blows acorns to far) toward your clearcut then you are more likely to have that hardwood stand you want. Mainly because you cut your standing trees in the summer before the viable pine(fresh seed not 1 yr old seed from last years seed crop) seed has fell to "contaminate" the site. Although you will still have a mixed stand because some of the 1 yr old pine seeds may still be viable and you have to assume some pine seeds will make it in, but this can be managed by firewood cutting in the future. But if you cut the pines in the winter you will surely have to call in the crop duster because doesn't matter which way the wind blows you already have your seed in place like it or not And it is Pine seed.

That is just an example and there are lots of factors I didn't include but I didn't want to be writing forever. I always speak in Pine vs. hardwood because it is what I know and am not to famililar with spruce (other than red spruce or frasier fir) or Tamarack. I hope this helps explain my previous statement.
S

[Submariner]

Northern Maine Land Man -

I love this thread. I'm sitting here laughing out loud at forest beekeeper's precisely accurate description of of the Unity College ethos:

"At those workshops I have seen fellow woodlot owners whose intent was 'profit', their concerns and questions have consistently been swept aside; in favour of the natural 'feng shui' of the forest.

Profit seeking woodlot owners are advised to seek out private Foresters who are willing to be contracted under those terms, but those ideas will not be tolerated at the workshops."

"Feng shui of the forest". That's definitely a keeper.

I am glad to have provided you amusement

I dislike 'seeing' conspiracies behind every rock, it gets too negative. I prefer to assume that the greater part of the world's problems arise from in-competency rather than from design. However having spoken with the Forestry pros and attended these various events, sigh. Your opinion that it is a conspiracy may be correct.

Then wnc-eky-me emerges to be an actual good guy with "C.A.V.E people or Citizens Against Virtually Everything". That's a keeper too.

It's a good snowy morning in Maine.

That it is.

good day.

[wnc-eky-me]

NMLM"Then wnc-eky-me emerges to be an actual good guy with "C.A.V.E people or Citizens Against Virtually Everything". That's a keeper too.

It's a good snowy morning in Maine."


Thanks for the comment. I am looking forward to being a voice of reason at Unity College. Maybe I can rub off on them and show them that it is pratical to want to earn money from your investment and that means some woodlot owners cutting timber for investment return. And yes some people who own woodlots want a profit in return for their investment. And maybe I can be that forester for some of the great woodlot owners of ME and help them manage their forest for profit. I believe it can be done and still not be "polluters" (environmental bad word) "SARCASAM ALERT" of the earth that has worked so hard at evolving into what it has become today with no help from man or God. But if you want to brush your teeth or wipe your #*# or drink a soda then you need wood products so get over the no cutting ideas.

It is beautiful sunny 50 degree day here in Clahole KY, but wish I were there seeing the snow. But today will be a good day for collecting Sap for Maple Syrup (good freeze last night warm sunny day). I know I know I am not in New England but we have the trees and it is working so far got about 1 gallon and 1/2. I am just practicing for when I get there.

"A healthy forest is no accident"
Shaun

[bignhfamily]

I don't use the word, "vulture" lightly. Here is the story of a soldier from Maine who was doing convoy duty every day in Iraq with a .50 cal machine gun.

"COPYRIGHT 2006 Bangor Daily News
Byline: Diana Bowley

Mar. 9--BROWNVILLE -- A Brewer Army Reservist who spent a year serving his country in Iraq is now engaged in a battle on the home front. Steve Campbell, 39, claims that the town of Brownville violated the federal Serviceman's Civil Relief Act because town officials removed his Brownville land from tree growth while he was in Iraq, and then presented him with a nearly $6,000 supplemental tax bill as a penalty. "I was over there doing convoy security missions while they were over here assessing me tax bills," Campbell said Wednesday. Whether property in tree growth is covered under the federal relief act is a vague issue that may have to..." This is still pending.

As the old police sergeant used to say on NYPD Blue. "Be careful out there."

Hey NMLM,

This really chaps my a$$. Bad enough that that we are there in the first place and that now our soldiers are having involuntary extensions put on their enlistments - now we're putting it to them on the home front too.
Sorry for getting off topic but I too ran security missions for Marine Corp (though I was in the Army) units in Northern Iraq during the Gulf War. These guys are my brothers in arms.

I'll be looking into treegrowth plans and open space plans when we buy our property in Maine this spring. (staying on topic)

Oh and IMHO, Big Government = Vultures

End of rant.

[AliceT]

OK, so amid my nearly 60 acres of forest, there are open meadows. The whole area was harvested within the last decade and bare spots exist, as well.

Thinking like a typical woman, I am thinking of planting these bare areas with blueberries, even more raspberries and of course, scattering some nut and fruit trees here and there. This isn't really gardening in my mind, just a little encouragement to think the way I think. This is permissable on tree growth land even without claiming it as garden area, correct?

And of course, I will fiercely protect my investment with an odd assortment of deranged and bloodthirsty geese.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by wnc-eky-me

...
Hey Forest I realize what I wrote didn't come out the way I wanted it to. I just believe that if markets are right and if alot of other factors are taken into account then you can manipulate what nature puts back out there. Now there are probably more circumstances where you can't manipulate it but there are times when you can. I guess that was what I was saying.

For Example,

Lets say you has a 40 acre tract of mostly mature Pine and the market is good to harvest. And lets say this tract is surrounded by a large river on one side and fields on one side and a hardwood mix stand on another side and lastly a stand of old field pure pine 20+ yrs old on the other(probably seeded from your stand you just cut). If we were to cut in the summer and we want to manage for hardwoods to come back and if the prevailing winds are coming from behind the pure field pines neighbooring you fresh clearcut, then no it probably isn't going to happen because of the seed blowing in from the field pine or at least not any time soon (call in the crop duster to kill pines). But if the prevailing winds blow the pine seed away and blow the hardwood seeds (excluding nut producing tree since wind rarely blows acorns to far) toward your clearcut then you are more likely to have that hardwood stand you want. Mainly because you cut your standing trees in the summer before the viable pine(fresh seed not 1 yr old seed from last years seed crop) seed has fell to "contaminate" the site. Although you will still have a mixed stand because some of the 1 yr old pine seeds may still be viable and you have to assume some pine seeds will make it in, but this can be managed by firewood cutting in the future. But if you cut the pines in the winter you will surely have to call in the crop duster because doesn't matter which way the wind blows you already have your seed in place like it or not And it is Pine seed.

That is just an example and there are lots of factors I didn't include but I didn't want to be writing forever. I always speak in Pine vs. hardwood because it is what I know and am not to famililar with spruce (other than red spruce or frasier fir) or Tamarack. I hope this helps explain my previous statement.
S

I have about 50 acres of 40-foot tall dead softwood trees, just waiting now for nature to re-seed with hardwood species.

I do understand that economics are involved.

Watching managed forestry previously on the Westcoast [where re-planting is required by law] where they can schedule their clear-cuts two decades in advance and guarantee what species is growing, it appeared to make much more economic sense.

The economics of: 'kill the trees and wait', then maybe kill them again and wait, and eventually nature may comply by re-seeding a different species that you prefer to be handling. Some how seems to be poor economics in my mind.

If nature agrees to comply with your desires, great!

Did nature agree to conform itself to your desires in one decade? or did it take four decades?

I am not a professional, so I do understand that I am out of my field.

I fail to fully grasp Maine economics.

No doubt your results may vary.

After all each time that you kill a stand of trees, you are rolling the dice as to what nature will decide to re-seed with.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by AliceT

OK, so amid my nearly 60 acres of forest, there are open meadows. The whole area was harvested within the last decade and bare spots exist, as well.

Thinking like a typical woman, I am thinking of planting these bare areas with blueberries, even more raspberries and of course, scattering some nut and fruit trees here and there. This isn't really gardening in my mind, just a little encouragement to think the way I think. This is permissable on tree growth land even without claiming it as garden area, correct?

And of course, I will fiercely protect my investment with an odd assortment of deranged and bloodthirsty geese.

'One Straw Revolution'

I too have clearings. I can walk through a clearing and broadcast seed to my hearts content and it does not violate my Forestry Management Plan. I have no tractor.

Many folks picture 'gardening' or 'farming' as removing all trees, digging up all rocks, and tilling the soil with either a tiller or a tractor. That form of agriculture is intensive and obvious. It is obvious to any bystander and it is obvious from the air above. Tax assessors do review satellite photos to see what obvious improvements are going on, for their own reasons.

My 'Forestry Management Plan' allows for an access trail for the purpose of gaining access through-out all of the tree stands, about every forty feet. So you could clear a series of twelve foot wide vehicle paths running parallel through your stand of trees, and still be in full compliance.

And I have seen from closely looking at satellite photos, it is not uncommon to see jeep trails fanning out through woodlots, like a hand and fingers.

So even with the best 'Forestry Management Plan' you are not talking about utilizing every square foot of land for growing trees. You need access.

Intensive cane production [raspberries] is done in straight lines, producing in alternate years. So you can have many rows of cane, the even numbered rows producing on even numbered years and the odd numbered rows producing in odd numbered years, etc. However that kind of operation would be 'intensive' and would obviously violate any 'Forestry Management Plan'. It would be 'farming'.

With so many access roads leading through a woodlot, dis-organized patches of corn, canes, turnips, spinach, etc, could fit nicely. And still comply with the heart and letter of a 'Forestry Management Plan'.

Don't forget there are other crops that grow on a forest floor beneath the canopy too.

[AliceT]

The Indian Cucumber being one. Although most efforts to cultivate this forest-floor jewel have failed, it gives my imagination the motivation to do something which has yet to be done.