Building a camp -- building permits? (Bangor, Jay: apartment, buying, construction)

[Maine_Wilds]

Hi. I'd spent the last few years hunting for the 'right' piece of land in Maine and finally found it a couple years ago. We're overjoyed that we're now getting ready to build and from my prior discussions with the *prior* code officer, they didn't care what we put up as long as they had an assessment and paid our appropriate taxes.

Now, a new code officer has moved in. In doing some of the most simple things he's brought up every thing under the sun... but let's say we get around nearly all of them... there are two that I'm concerned about:

1) Road access. The build site I want is up the mountain. Yes, it brings all the burdens of maintenance, etc...but I'm happy dealing with those and will use snow-tracked ATV's to get in during the winter. The road will be tricky but it's fine with me and the dangers it brings including emergency access. So, is there a restriction to a building permit in Maine for emergency access? If I'm want to build in a remote location and realize it's tricky or impossible to get emergency rigs in then that should be my own doing. I don't know if it's an issue yet but I've heard it mentioned. It's a private (non-town) road as a ROW across some properties. Then my 'driveway' would be the tricky one up the mountain.

2) Foundation. I want my camp to simply be a modest cabin so small is fine but I'd like it to be solid and can stand the test of time. To that, I want to put in a proper foundation and then build something small or put a pre-fab camp on it. I hear different things about camp permits or requirements but once a person goes with a cement foundation then it gets tricky for code and you get into everything having to be perfect.

3) Camp w/o permit. If after I enquire about this stuff and the code office doesn't like it... what happens if I just build? a fine? a tear-down? I cannot imagine that in the state of Maine with all the camps all over the place... that now I happen to fall into an unlucky time with the town hires a new CEO and my entire dream goes up in smoke because of some BS like this.

Part of what I really want is absolute seclusion and I do not want anyone to have any access in the winter ... a bit of an Eagle's nest. That should be my right but I can't believe that a person cannot build a camp to their own specifications for their own use and that's that. Yes, if I sell then there would be inspections and they would say 'its not a legal or code-compliant camp so the value is $0' or whatever they wish to state... then it's just worth the land it's on.

Anyone have an experience with situations like this? I also worry that the more I ask the town the more their radar goes up and then I open a whole can of worms rather than me just doing it and asking for forgiveness.

One more thing to add... along the ROW road, there are other owners with driveways off the ROW road ...a couple of camps and also a couple of full-season cabins. They were all done with a prior Code officer... there is no way they are accessible to emergency vehicles in the winter, even with their driveways plowed... in fact one of them can't even have it plowed it's so steep. Is there precedence that can be used as well?

Any thoughts or experiences are very much appreciated.

Thanks

[retiredtinbender]

My suggestion is to work with the CEO, plumbing insp., et al and save yourself some grief. Especially now that he knows your intentions. Thank heaven fot the new state building codes. In most cases I am aware of, the camp will last longer for all the trials you go through at the start. Some towns make you tear it down, some have stout fines for gong against the grain, some just shrug and give a lecture. Just remember that towns can get fined too if the state gets involved. If that happens, you could also subsidize the payment of town fines. Work with them, give them a good attitude and if you think the CEO is just spouting BS you can appeal to the zoning board.

As far as precedence, the law says there is no precedence in this or ZBA appeals. That's just the way it is. Each casee on its own merits. Good luck with the "hide-a-way". Sounds like a great place.

[Cornerguy1]

Any thoughts as to how those concrete trucks are going to make it up your tricky access?

You don't generally pour a full building foundation by mixing bags of pre-mix in a wheel barrow.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by Maine_Wilds

Hi. I'd spent the last few years hunting for the 'right' piece of land in Maine and finally found it a couple years ago.

Welcome and congratulations on your property.

...
1) Road access. The build site I want is up the mountain. ... So, is there a restriction to a building permit in Maine for emergency access?

Not that I have ever heard of.

... I want to put in a proper foundation and then build something small or put a pre-fab camp on it. I hear different things about camp permits or requirements but once a person goes with a cement foundation then it gets tricky for code and you get into everything having to be perfect.

Pretty much.

If it is 'permanent' [stone or concrete] then it needs a permit and possible inspections.

... Camp w/o permit. If after I enquire about this stuff and the code office doesn't like it... what happens if I just build? a fine? a tear-down? I cannot imagine that in the state of Maine with all the camps all over the place... that now I happen to fall into an unlucky time with the town hires a new CEO and my entire dream goes up in smoke because of some BS like this.

'Camps' are very common.

Most have no permit, because most have no permanent foundation. You said you want a foundation so it is not a 'camp' it is a residence and needs a permit.

Violate code [whether written code or simply the opinion of the CEO] and you will have to comply with whatever he says. If that means tear-down, or fines it up to him. And rarely is up to whether you violated any written building code.

... Part of what I really want is absolute seclusion and I do not want anyone to have any access in the winter

Mmm, how do you plan to stop snowshoeing or sledding? No, wait dont tell me, if it involves deadly traps, I do not want to know.

... That should be my right but I can't believe that a person cannot build a camp to their own specifications for their own use and that's that.

That is mostly how it is.

... Yes, if I sell then there would be inspections and they would say 'its not a legal or code-compliant camp so the value is $0' or whatever they wish to state... then it's just worth the land it's on.

You are confusing 'camp' with 'residence' or dwelling.

'camps' I see have no code compliance and no permits.

Residences or dwellings must fully comply.

... Anyone have an experience with situations like this? I also worry that the more I ask the town the more their radar goes up and then I open a whole can of worms rather than me just doing it and asking for forgiveness.

One more thing to add... along the ROW road, there are other owners with driveways off the ROW road ...a couple of camps and also a couple of full-season cabins. They were all done with a prior Code officer... there is no way they are accessible to emergency vehicles in the winter, even with their driveways plowed... in fact one of them can't even have it plowed it's so steep. Is there precedence that can be used as well?

Any thoughts or experiences are very much appreciated.

Thanks

If you absolutely insist, that you must force a CEO to drag himself out to find your property; then he will likely be a serious stick in the mud. Mostly because you have been so forceful on making him leave his office.

Not sure if that is a wise move.

Not sure why you want to focus so much on emergency access in the winter either.

You have fun and enjoy yourself.

[retiredtinbender]

Originally Posted by forest beekeeper

'Camps' are very common.

Most have no permit, because most have no permanent foundation. You said you want a foundation so it is not a 'camp' it is a residence and needs a permit.

Violate code [whether written code or simply the opinion of the CEO] and you will have to comply with whatever he says. If that means tear-down, or fines it up to him. And rarely is up to whether you violated any written building code.

You are confusing 'camp' with 'residence' or dwelling.

'camps' I see have no code compliance and no permits.

Residences or dwellings must fully comply.

If you absolutely insist, that you must force a CEO to drag himself out to find your property; then he will likely be a serious stick in the mud. Mostly because you have been so forceful on making him leave his office.

Not sure if that is a wise move.

Not sure why you want to focus so much on emergency access in the winter either.

You have fun and enjoy yourself.

You're misleading this one a bit here FB. I bet your eyes are brown. Maine law does not really differentiate between camp, residence, shed or barn. It considers them "structures" and they need permits. It make no diffference if it has a full foundation or slab or posts for a foundation or if it is built on the ground. To keep telling folks you don't need a permit for a "camp" in Maine is going to land someone in a peck of trouble one of these days.

Yes, there arer places, mostly in the UT and well hidden, that hunting camps spring up with no bulding permit or septic plan. But those generally are way out in the willy-wags where people do not generally go. Even the State folks only travel there every 5 years or so. But it seems the CEO already knows of the intent to build and I'd put my money on him keeping an eye out.

The CEO has to follow the laws. He can't make them up as he goes along and get away with it. Someone is bound to call him on it.

But back to the OP:is the plpace up the UT or right around Jay/Dixfield area? And how do you plan for emergencies and CG had an interesting question too. Concrete truck access? Construction matereial?

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by retiredtinbender

You're misleading this one a bit here FB.

I know many people now who have camps.

From among those that I have discussed the permit issue with this has been exactly how it has been explained to me.

... I bet your eyes are brown.

I am not certain what this means, in the Navy it would be an insult.

I do not think that I have said anything to likewise insult you.

... Maine law does not really differentiate between camp, residence, shed or barn. It considers them "structures" and they need permits. It make no diffference if it has a full foundation or slab or posts for a foundation or if it is built on the ground. To keep telling folks you don't need a permit for a "camp" in Maine is going to land someone in a peck of trouble one of these days.

What you are saying runs exactly opposite to what I have been told dozens of times.

In fact just yesterday after church services we had a long discussion with a friend who owns such a 'camp'.

... Yes, there arer places, mostly in the UT and well hidden, that hunting camps spring up with no bulding permit or septic plan. But those generally are way out in the willy-wags where people do not generally go. Even the State folks only travel there every 5 years or so.

I live in a UT. I am not way out in the willy-wags.

I have spoken with the state assessor. His office sends someone out every 10 years and no more. He [the state tax assessor] explained that to me.

... CEO has to follow the laws. He can't make them up as he goes along and get away with it. Someone is bound to call him on it.

I have spoken with four different contractors who would each argue with that statement.

I personally have not dealt with any CEOs in Maine. However from those of whom I have spoken with the consensus is that each CEO does tend to have their own idea of what the code says.



The opinions that you have expressed here, run contrary to everything I have seen and heard IRL.

[taiinuk12]

Originally Posted by Maine_Wilds

Hi. I'd spent the last few years hunting for the 'right' piece of land in Maine and finally found it a couple years ago. We're overjoyed that we're now getting ready to build and from my prior discussions with the *prior* code officer, they didn't care what we put up as long as they had an assessment and paid our appropriate taxes.

Now, a new code officer has moved in. In doing some of the most simple things he's brought up every thing under the sun... but let's say we get around nearly all of them... there are two that I'm concerned about:

1) Road access. The build site I want is up the mountain. Yes, it brings all the burdens of maintenance, etc...but I'm happy dealing with those and will use snow-tracked ATV's to get in during the winter. The road will be tricky but it's fine with me and the dangers it brings including emergency access. So, is there a restriction to a building permit in Maine for emergency access? If I'm want to build in a remote location and realize it's tricky or impossible to get emergency rigs in then that should be my own doing. I don't know if it's an issue yet but I've heard it mentioned. It's a private (non-town) road as a ROW across some properties. Then my 'driveway' would be the tricky one up the mountain.

Thanks

if you own the land out right the emergency access should not stop you from get building permit,
But if the tract you buying is from some one who subdivide lot to sell 3 or more lots then the ROW will have to meet the emergency vehicle access requirement.

[retiredtinbender]

Forest, all I can tell you is what they teach us at the state certification classes and in the state manuals. I guess I am an odd one out following the laws at this end and having a board of appeals that back it up. And contractors around this neck of the woods go the same route. We all just work together to that end.

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by retiredtinbender

Forest, all I can tell you is what they teach us at the state certification classes and in the state manuals. I guess I am an odd one out following the laws at this end and having a board of appeals that back it up. And contractors around this neck of the woods go the same route. We all just work together to that end.

We have been shopping apartment buildings in Bangor for the past year; nearly every property has blatant code violations. I am not a building inspector, I am not a construction contractor; though I have owned four apartment buildings previously. I have had to deal with building inspectors to fix a great many things in the past. So when I walk through a property and see things that are obvious violations it is also obvious that enforcement is not uniform. At one building that had just passed a CEO inspection, I fell through a landing on the exterior of a building up on the third floor fire escape. The floor boards were rotted, I caught myself on the joist underneath.

Last summer we were in process of a building project, and we got a series of bids from different contractors. It was interesting hearing how depending on which township the work would be done in, and how differently the work would go. Contractors know all of this. In one township the CEO knows one facet and ignores the rest, but in the next township over that CEO looks at completely different things, and in another township the CEO will never step foot on the job site. Talk to contractors, they openly know which CEOs will enforce which section of the building codes.



It is possible that this topic is among those that can only be explained due to the two different 'Maines'. ?

[kellysmith]

Let me take a stab at this. There are several conditions that might apply.
1. If the municipality has over 2000, the Maine Uniform Building code applies.
2. If the location if controlled by LURC (about half the state) LURC building permits are required.
3. If the municipality has under 2000, it doesn't require the town have Building Codes, but with that said, I know of no organized town that doesn't have a CEO or a Third Party Inspector (TPI).
4. A structure is a structure, camp without a foundation will have the same rules applied based on 1,2,3 above.
5. Even if you did find a town under 2000 with no building code, there are other things to consider. I know a guy who wanted to put a road in and he had to deal with the State Forest Service for the road layout. Same guy did some bulldozing in his yard and got a summons from the Forest Service for not having a permit. Any water nearby and Forest Service will be involved.

I know another guy who built a camp on hemlock piers and used his interpretation of where the high water mark was. Forest Service had a different opinion and this guy ended up paying a fine and moving his camp.

Lastly, with all this said the OP says the municpality has a CEO which means they have a building code. That means what the CEO says, goes!...for any structure.

Here's a link to some reading...
http://www.maine.gov/dps/bbcs/FAQ%202.doc